Discussion - GM responsibilities and GM duties

[Buenos Aires]

Id like to spark up a simple discussion and see how the league, and every GM for himself feels on certain topics.

As some of you know, Ive had a bad experience a few days ago, when a certain trade went down the drains. It probably happened to all of us, and its every GMs right to reject any given trade on any given circumstance. So why am I bothering you guys? Because two things happened, which dont happen often ( at least I hope so ).

After an exchange of PMs, a few days of waiting, other deals happening around the league so that this trade could potentially happen, the other side presented a formal offer, to which I responded with an acceptance, and my only wish was that the other side matches the salaries since I dont have the game, and it would probably take me more time. A timeline has been established. After the other side offered a trade, 9 hours later I replied with a yes, and a permission to post with the salaries matched. After 10 hours I receive a PM with the other GMs need of my skype name, and I answer after exactly 8 minutes. 10 hours later I dont have a reply to my pm or a skype IM from the guy. And then a whole day and a half passed before I sent out another PM, and skype IM, on which I got a cold reply that he changed his mind, and that it isnt happening. Really? Now theres two issues id like to discuss.

1. Most leagues I had been in, and in which Im still involved, honour GMs word almost, if not the same, as an official board post of an agreed trade. Basically an ACCEPTED OR OFFICIALLY offered trade via PM also means something. In one league we even have a rule that if a GM backs out of an agreed trade, that he can be subjected to firing, or at least given a serious warning in other league. Of course, it doesnt have to be like that in this league, but Id like to hear others, do you guys think that its ok to back out something offered at any given time, or should a GM word mean something?

2. What irked me even more, was the blatant unanswering of PMs, while the other party was very much active on both the boards and Skype. At least, when you decide to quit on an arranged trade, IMO at least have the balls to answer, explain your reasoning and try t ease the situation, especially when u have time, since ur active all around the place. If not the balls, then just have the common courtesy. Back to the other leagues, theres a simple rule of a GM courtesy, "JUST REPLY TO A PM, AT ANY GIVEN TIME, WHEN U FIND TIME, AND EVEN A SIMPLE YES OR NO CAN DO THE TRICK, RATHER THEN NOT REPLYING AT ALL TO PMs". To me that should be normal. You may or may not like the offer. In fact it may be a horrible offer. Just reply with a No. It takes exactly 2 seconds of your precious time. And in the case of a GM having a pending trade, any logic dictates that an answer is needed. So it basically irked me to a point where I started to write my resignation post, because I dodnt want to deal with GMs like that on a daily basis.


Now Im eager to hear what you guys have to say, it doesnt matter if u agree with me or not, just post your thoughts...

[London]

Look, you don't deal with GMs like that on a daily basis. This is a severely rare occurrence brought on by a non-ABCAer.

Also, it was a scrub trade. It's not like this was for Elgin Baylor, this was for Hans Joachim-Flau, so let's not make it sound like you were making a franchise changing deal. You have at least one other offer (mine) for Hans which you've almost taken a couple of times because the other team had been stringing you along for weeks (who was waiting on another GM to respond).

But ULTIMATELY, yes, I completely agree with you. If you have ACCEPTED a trade in a discussion that should be your word. If you are TALKING a deal and are still kicking around figures/pieces you have an opportunity to get out (but you should also do so gracefully) because ULTIMATELY you're going to need to deal with these people again.

Word will get around that you (the offender) suck at trade negotiating and people will stop making deals with that GM. Then they're stuck with their squad and the league is no-fun for them. Let's be honest - I don't tolerate too much underhanded shit. If it happens too often then they'll just be shit-canned.

And yes, it's lame to duck a guy's messages. Just tell him so he can move on too. You know how you (the offender) were waiting on a GM earlier in this story to make a move on 2-3 other deals? Right, you're now the one holding up other people and their moves. So be honest, don't be a dick, and don't hold up other people's moves. At least the other GM holding up trades had a valid excuse for not being able to get back to you.

More people have (probably) been terminated for violating these types of interpersonal norms in ABCA than anything else. Be warned.

[Bayi]

Who was the offending team? I'd like to know.

[Derek]

May 28, 2013 7:35:12 GMT -6 Bayi said:

Who was the offending team? I'd like to know.

Not scared to admit I was. Was waiting to make a deal with you and once it happened I was going to deal for Flau. He replied a few hours after my offer but it also occurred after a sim where I did quite poorly in. Ending any thoughts of trading for a one year filling role player. If JScott wants to fire me because I changed my mind after not hearing back until a sim occurred (thus changing things) and not replying to certain PMs then go ahead and I'll out each GM who has kept me waiting in here as well so JScott can have a firing party.

Note that as I was apologizing for not replying he began to call me classless then said he is gonna post "my resignation". When I told him that wasn't my concern (posting resignation). He once again stated I didn't have any "GM class." So do excuse if I don't give a flying rats ass what this guy has to say.

[London]

It's not about changing your mind. It's about blatantly ignoring someone's attempt to confirm a trade you accepted (according to him).

Do I think the resignation talk was a bit much? Yes, I told him as much. It's a guy worth roughly a couple of 2nds, it's not worth leaving a league over. But I understand the frustration experienced when you're trying a number of forms of communication to reach someone and they are not responding. Especially 8 minutes after you asked for his Skype handle.

The lesson to learn from this is to treat people you'll need to deal with in the future more appropriately. No one likes to be jerked around.

Lashing out further and throwing gas onto the fire isn't going to help. You're not exactly coming off as sympathetic in this case. Frankly, it is "classless" to accept a deal and then back-out. If the deal was good enough that you accepted it, you should feel alright living with the consequences.

[Drew]

May 28, 2013 8:08:10 GMT -6 Derek said:

May 28, 2013 7:35:12 GMT -6 Bayi said:

Who was the offending team? I'd like to know.

Not scared to admit I was. Was waiting to make a deal with you and once it happened I was going to deal for Flau. He replied a few hours after my offer but it also occurred after a sim where I did quite poorly in. Ending any thoughts of trading for a one year filling role player. If JScott wants to fire me because I changed my mind after not hearing back until a sim occurred (thus changing things) and not replying to certain PMs then go ahead and I'll out each GM who has kept me waiting in here as well so JScott can have a firing party.

Note that as I was apologizing for not replying he began to call me classless then said he is gonna post "my resignation". When I told him that wasn't my concern (posting resignation). He once again stated I didn't have any "GM class." So do excuse if I don't give a flying rats ass what this guy has to say.

You're really not helping your case with this post.  I thought Buenos Aires might have been being over dramatic but this post suggests other wise.  It can be a tough thing to do but if you've decided to back out of a trade the least you can do is man up and tell him exactly what's up and why.

[London]

I had to back out of talks with Berlin and Sydney for Monk. Trust me, neither was happy about it but I told them what was up. I just said I didn't think that either of the moves was enough to help me especially when what I needed was picks instead of talent.

Just be upfront and honest and I think people will take you more seriously in your negotiating and respect you more as a GM.

[Derek]

I did send him the offer, would have been easy had he not waited the entire day and a sim to reply. I replied the first time he messaged me on Skype.

Glad I am not coming across sympathetic, would have been had he not started throwing names out there. Which to my understanding is completely against your league rules.

I did tell him why I backed out, then he called me classless. Told him no point in me trying to win after that sim that occurred. Then told him I sent offer before and he replied after sim changed my interest. It isn't like he doesn't know why I backed out.

[London]

May 28, 2013 8:24:48 GMT -6 Derek said:

I did send him the offer, would have been easy had he not waited the entire day and a sim to reply. I replied the first time he messaged me on Skype.

Glad I am not coming across sympathetic, would have been had he not started throwing names out there. Which to my understanding is completely against your league rules.

I did tell him why I backed out, then he called me classless. Told him no point in me trying to win after that sim that occurred. Then told him I sent offer before and he replied after sim changed my interest. It isn't like he doesn't know why I backed out.

Umm, no, name calling is allowed (encouraged even), but hate speech is not.

So you're saying you did get back to him right away? Because he is saying otherwise, he is saying it took days, which is what set him off to begin with. Because if you were on the boards and on Skype for days while he's waiting on you to post because you'd accepted already that can be a problem for someone.

EDIT: Anyone else seeing this becoming "How? Part II"

EDIT 2: Can't wait for the "The Epic Finale of the How? Trilogy" staring Zach Galifianakis in theaters 2018.

[Derek]

I didn't reply on the board no, mainly because I use my phone on the full page (hate mobile site) and didn't see it right away. Only time I really see PM's are when I am at work or checking everything at home on CPU right before I submit my DC. Which his reply wasn't til AFTER the damn sim. Hence me asking for Skype (which I can't tell if he is online or not because he never accepted request).

Good to know that calling people classless is accepted around here. Apparently that isn't a shot at someone's character and is alright? How is that?





Edit: As one of the most active persons around the board who had to wait well over a week to get a deal done where I couldn't get a reply on either Skype or via PM, I just don't see the difference. All I see is someone who cried about the situation versus just asking others why I can't get in touch. Really doesn't lend to me wanting to keep my activity up.

[London]

May 28, 2013 8:36:51 GMT -6 Derek said:

Good to know that calling people classless is accepted around here. Apparently that isn't a shot at someone's character and is alright? How is that?

Dude, a shot at someone's character is EXACTLY what is accepted here. That's all you have here. No money, no real people, no faces, just your honor and your character and if you dick around with someone I think calling someone "classless" is getting off as lightly as I can imagine.

These are the rules regarding talking to others:

11) Smack talk is definitely tolerated and often times encouraged as feuds make for a fun league. If you cannot handle it, this is not the place for you.

12) We do not tolerate any sort of hate speech here. Call people names/swear, sure, but lets steer clear of using racist or homophobic language on this board. You won't be the first or the last person run out of here because of that.

Do you see anywhere that it says character attacks are off limits?

[Derek]

Sounds good then. Been struggling on what exactly I can say to be honest.

If you want to talk about classless, read my edit. Coming here like a little bitch after threatening to a fellow GM that you'll resign now because he didn't want to do a trade your dumbass waited to reply to instead of just taking things up someone in private just proves how low and immature you are. Grow the fuck up like I told you to on Skype. Nobody gives a shit if you had absolutely no other offers worth a flip for a player and the one person who was or might be willing to give you something worth while for that player isn't sold on the deal anymore. Go find another tree to bark up because I really don't give a fuck how much crying you're doing.

[London]

May 28, 2013 8:36:51 GMT -6 Derek said:

Edit: As one of the most active persons around the board who had to wait well over a week to get a deal done where I couldn't get a reply on either Skype or via PM, I just don't see the difference. All I see is someone who cried about the situation versus just asking others why I can't get in touch. Really doesn't lend to me wanting to keep my activity up.

Because you're a fucking moron that you don't see a difference.

Boston was "away" he had REAL LIFE shit going on. You KNEW this. You CHOSE to wait for him even though virtually NOTHING had been discussed on a trade.

Buenos Aires and you had an AGREED to deal. You ACCEPTED it. You were all over Skype, all over the boards, and had opportunities to get back to him earlier.

Don't bother comparing the two it's apples and oranges. You look like a bigger fool for that.

On top of that, saying "As one of the most active persons around the board who had to wait well over a week to get a deal done," means nothing at all. Your activity does not excuse you from the rules/norms or this league/society. You can be fired just like anyone else. You have to live by the same rules as everyone else. If you don't like to it take your activity (and disdain for your logo) elsewhere and we'll find a Brasil GM who watches Arrested Development and isn't a tool.

[Deleted]

All I can say at this point is that it's kind of hilarious how over dramatic both parties are being. I mean, I guess it's a good thing that both are this passionate, however, still hilarious.

And yes, of course at the end of the day we should try and be honorable and respectful because at some point you'll want to be treated in the same way when the tables turned.

That being said, Buenos Aires, I'd like to discuss Flau if he's still available.

[London]

May 28, 2013 8:48:39 GMT -6 Derek said:

Sounds good then. Been struggling on what exactly I can say to be honest.

If you want to talk about classless, read my edit. Coming here like a little bitch after threatening to a fellow GM that you'll resign now because he didn't want to do a trade your dumbass waited to reply to instead of just taking things up someone in private just proves how low and immature you are. Grow the fuck up like I told you to on Skype. Nobody gives a shit if you had absolutely no other offers worth a flip for a player and the one person who was or might be willing to give you something worth while for that player isn't sold on the deal anymore. Go find another tree to bark up because I really don't give a fuck how much crying you're doing.

Yeah, your edit is shit.

I told him to expect some sort of backlash for this post, he said he didn't care.

I don't think alerting the league to a potential problem GM is an issue.

But I do think your refusal to acknowledge your part/wrongdoing in this is a real issue. I think you are damaging your rep far worse than BA is.

Every time I read a post of your in this thread I want you out of this league more.

[Derek]

Actually quite a bit had been discussed including offers on the table. I was okay with waiting.

As far as rules... what rule did I break? Please let me know.

If you really want me out the league, you have every right to fire me.

[London]

May 28, 2013 8:54:09 GMT -6 Derek said:

Actually quite a bit had been discussed including offers on the table. I was okay with waiting.

As far as rules... what rule did I break? Please let me know.

If you really want me out the league, you have every right to fire me.

I didn't say you broke a rule. This isn't my thread.

I said don't be a dick to other GMs. You know, part of the unneeded unwritten rules.

You were citing something about "character" attacks so I was pointing out that there was no such mention of "character" attacks.

[Derek]

Gotcha, just making sure. I had no intentions of being a dick to the guy but there are much better ways to work things out than coming to cry to the general public of the league.

[London]

Agreed.

I told him "be prepared for the repercussions" and he said he was, so.. his call.

And for the record, I had a vested interested in you NOT making the deal. I was the #2 team in the Flau sweepstakes (that is, until this morning when I dealt part of my offer to CSP for Dino Martin). I was hoping you guys wouldn't get together on that trade so my interest in this case is purely due to GM-to-GM interaction and not due to any personal gain I had to make.

I told him for weeks that there was no reason for you to make that deal especially after not making the earlier, bigger deal with Boston. You and he both decided to wait for deals but you and Boston talked and decided to not make a deal (before getting together and making another deal) where as it sounds like you and BA talked and had agreed but neither posted. I was confused as to why (if it was accepted by you) he didn't post it and wait for you to accept.

[Derek]

I know you were. You even noted to me that morning you were messaging him saying I wasn't gonna be able to make the deal. I didn't realize it wouldn't be until that evening when he would reply. I really planned to take the entire day trying to re-shape team. Didn't work out now I am fading towards that dreaded middle part. Oh wells.

[Tyler]

1. This thread is awesome.
2. This thread is awesome.

3. I can sympathize with Buenos Aires because something very similar happened to me just a few days ago involving Tehran (sorry bro, under the bus you go). Basically we were chatting over the course of a few days, we got towards the end of a deal and he made an offer and just needed cap filler and I said I'd go for it. He was online and didn't respond the same night and waited til the next day and resigned his offer.

Now, I can understand the frustration Buenos Aires is feeling because it will jerk a GM around when they are in the midst of a deal and very active to get it done but at the same time you can't assume every offer is basically a trade set in stone. Maybe they are fielding offers, maybe they think they can get more, maybe they changed their idea of the trade, or their team.. There are a thousand reasons things won't happen and it's all part of the game. Also with fast responses from GMs, you are going to have to bear with us and the time our league is at because the league does take a lot of activity and quite a few teams are in tank mode who don't have a single player to watch. How excited can you be about tanking, with no assets, in the first year of a league?

With all of that said I do hope GMs try to respond to one another in a more timely manner because that is specific to your team. The main things with activity in my opinion are DCs, PERSONAL messages, and posts the directly relate to the league as a whole. Everything else can be figured out with how much time you have.

4. Brazil, this is nothing personal, but name calling is definitely supported and I feel there is a time and place for it (which is all the time, in every thread) but depending on what the context is, it can be very tasteless. I think Buenos Aires went light calling you classless, but that is his opinion and it doesn't change me trading with you. But when you hop on and go into defense mode and call the guy a little bitch and cry baby it doesn't come off in very good light to you. In any case just giving some insight on how I feel about the situation. I don't think we need to replace GMs over something fairly avoidable.

5. London was I apart of that stupid thread? I do remember having a 5+ page argument about how a trade I did was dumb. Alot has happened.



BTW I don't really feel like I threw Tehran under the bus, I understood the situation and he changed his kind which is no biggie. He did take a bit longer with PMs but I'm still alive right?

[London]

I've had a few moves like that too. I got hosed on some Creation Draft trades and I forgot to get back to a guy about a trade I already thought I rejected.

CSKA, no I don't think that thread was about you. It was about someone else who had just destroyed a team. I think it was like 72-pages.

[Tyler]

I feel like I was there at one point. Was it Athens Titans? Trading a big man. Im pretty sure you thought I was destroying my team at that point too. Its so hard for me to remember what teams I was in Global but I know me and you went back an fourth a lot at one point. I dont think I could handle 72 pages but that couldnt have been just two people going back and fourth could it?

[Tyler]

I just looked into it and I was there but I wasnt the guy. I forgot about when we had assistants. That topic was ridiculous.

[Sydney]

I think I deserve like 20 minutes back of my life after reading this. Anyway, this is what I take from all of this:

1) Trade etiquette should be followed no matter what. If you propose a trade via PM and it is accepted, you should go through with said trade offer. There is no ifs/and/or but's when it comes to this. It's as black and white as they go, you don't make trade proposals unless you're willing to go through with it.

2) Don't make actual offers when the offer is only contingent upon you making other deals. Tossing around ideas and getting a feel for other possible deals while consummating other trades is beyond fine, hell you may be a moron not to do this. HOWEVER, unless the offer you make specifically states that it is only contingent upon XXXX trade being completed, you should be held accountable for the original offer and possible acceptance.

3) Don't ignore GMs when you've accepted a trade. The excuse of well he didn't accept it until after the SIM and you changed your mind, is the biggest horseshit I've ever heard. There are no expiration dates on offers unless you rescind it or specifically say so. I for one am not hawking over this board every 20 minutes and I'm sure no one else feels this way, so if I make an offer and it's accepted or vice versa, I expect that GM to honor their commitment, no matter when it's posted.

4) Grow up France.