Post by Sydney on Dec 4, 2014 14:04:19 GMT -6
Welcome to the Ultimate Roundtable. We have your usual suspects playing along in addition to some first time newbies. The participants this year are as follows: London Towers, KK PartiZan, Cairo Zamalek, San Francisco Warriors, Chicago Bulls, Beijing Aoshen and Boston Celtics. With a whopping 7 contestants vying for the belt and only 6 questions, it’s bound to get a little testy in here. Let’s get to it!
Question 1: In your opinion, who are the 5 most VALUABLE players in the league? This does not simply imply BEST player
San Fran: Great question because it is not going to be the best 5 players given how much youth and potential is valued in the league, along with what I am going to call brand recognition i.e. Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson etc.
1. Alex English - He’s the best player in the league, his team keeps winning and he is only 27 and locked up for multiple years still. Honestly, he is the that perfect zone of being fully developed but not yet getting into that “aging” area that people seem to be leery of.
2. Michael Jordan - His Airness was part of the biggest trade this past season in his rookie year and is a combination of elite athletic ability (A- or higher in all areas), age (23), skills, potential and name recognition. I would anticipate him being at the top of this list in the next couple of years.
3. Isiah Thomas - He carries an otherwise mediocre team, is arguably the best pure PG in the game at 23 and has the physical traits to be amazing. Simply put if he was ever floated on the trade market I think every other team would offer.
4. Hakeem Olajuwon - Super athletic center who has been a dominate player his first two years and is close to fully developed. Big men are always at a premium in the league and the comboniation of the his athletic ability, skills, name and age put him among the most valuable players in the league. List item 4
5. Shaquille O’Neal - This is the first guy who I think is clearly not a top 15 player in the league along with being the top 5 most valuable, but teams love the rookies every year and he is an elite combination of strength, offense and defense with his fatal flaw being his FT shooting. His name recognition is second on this list to only MJ and team’s love youth so there you have it.
Boston: From my limited experience in this league thus far, the odds are probably stacked up against my selections, but in any case, I think that the top-5 MVPs in the league, in no particular order, would have to be:
- Oscar Robertson: Simply well-rounded in all facets of the game and is the clearcut leader of his team, doing it all while guiding his teammates to follow suit,
- Patrick Ewing: A monster inside on both ends of the floor, whether it's scoring with efficiency, or anchoring his team inside on the defensive end, swatting shots and coming down with big boards. Scary to think he's only 21...
- Hakeem Olajuwon: Patrick's older (and better) brother. A beast who gets his job done on both ends. Any team with Hakeem manning the helm is going to have a problem on their hands trying to stop him or get by him. Oh, and he's only 23.
- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: The two things that impress me most about Kareem (other than his signature skyhook) is, firstly, his ability to reward his team with a very respectable free-throw percentage as teams hack away at him inside, trying to stop him from crashing the glass and cleaning up his team's mess, or bait them into fouling with great footwork; secondly, his incredible FG% that simply screams "efficiency". While his usage is second on the team (only by a mere 0.3%), there's no denying he makes the most of the possessions he's given.
- Elvin Hayes: It would be tragedic to leave him off this list and only have his teammate Kareem. Arguably THE most valuable player in the league. 26/11 a night, 3 blocks, low turnovers, low foul rate. It's too bad he's already 31, but he's most definitely got another year or two of utter dominance left, followed by a few years of play that most teams would pay a pretty penny for.
London: Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Robert Parish in no specific order. I went with Jordan and a bunch of bigs because I think those are the players more GMs would want to build around. Shaq was just drafted #1 and probably holds tremendous value to the Pacers who may never trade him. Jordan is still Jordan and looks elite at the league's thinnest position. Hakeem has put together two great seasons and has made LA legit. Parish has a ring and might be the most dominant young big in the league. Kareem is best big man in the league and until he is dethrowned there is a lot of value in that.
Cairo: I'm going to list the best player who I feel have the most value in the league at this time. Not necessarily the best players, because I'm taking into account age, contract and my gut feeling on who still has room to grow etc. I'm surely forgetting someone but you surely can't go wrong with these five players.
1) Hakeem Olajuwon - Best young player in the league, on his rookie contract.
2) Michael Jordan - Possibly the best back court player in the league, already averaging better than 25 plus.
3) Ralph Sampson - Has put up 23 and 10 so far in his career while shooting better than 60% from the field.
4) Alex English - Just lead the Sonics to his first ring, and still has about 3 years at an elite level.
5) Patrick Ewing - A solid anchor who hasn't even reached his full potential yet. When it's all said and done, I feel Ewing will have been one of the best.
Aoshen: In this order: Alex English, Hakeem Olajuwon, JoJo White, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Not only is English the best player in the league but he is also the best player on the best team. Sure some of the players behind him are better in certain categories but overall, any team with Alex English will be a good team. I cry every time I look at him... While Hakeem does have King backing him up, LA became an instant playoff team when he came aboard and became a contender after just two seasons. JoJo is still JoJo and putting up insane numbers while on the same team as Alex English, he can play anywhere on the perimeter. MJ returned London to the Eurasian Conference Finals with guns blazing and will likely eventually win a title in London. Finally KAJ, he has continued his run of great form except on a different continent this season. BA doesn't do as well as they did this year without him. Even if they had kept MJ, I dont think they have the record they did.
Chicago: Most valuable players should be defined as the players who add the most success to their team, without whom they would win far fewer games, players who truly elevate the play of their teams.. My list begins with Isiah Thomas. He has had a Madrid team in the playoffs the past two seasons despite very little talent around him. Next, we have the league’s best player, Kareem. BA has a bunch of super studs, but Kareem cannot be excluded from the top 5 in any category, he’s that good.
Hakeem Olajuwon is just a beast. Sure, King is good, but that team was lotto until Hakeem got there and became one of the league’s best. This list wouldn’t be complete without a Seattle player on it, and I’ll argue for both of them. Staying in the division, Alex English and JoJo White are both so incredibly versatile and valuable, no wonder Seattle has won as much as they have.
Isiah Thomas, Kareem Adbul Jabbar, Hakeem Olajuwon, Alex English, JoJo White
partiZan: In order, the five most valuable players in the league to me are:
1: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - He has consistently signed for less than the mac and is as dominant as you can desire a big man to me on both ends of the floor.
2: Oscar Robertson - Can play the 1 through 3 and provide elite numbers and efficiency. 7 All-League 1st teams in 9 years (injured 1 and 2nd team most recent). Biggest difference maker at the true wing/guard position in league history.
3: Elvin Hayes - 4 MVP's should speak for itself. Can win a game, series, or championship as the lead dog and seems to be getting better defensively as his career goes on.
4: Michael Jordan - Still on a rookie contract and already elite in many areas. His value comes from the 2 years left around 5 million dollars more than anything.
5: Shaquille O'Neal - Has not played a game but 4 years of what will be elite level production (so I assume) at the cost he'll be is extremely valuable.
Moderator: Well, you really can't go wrong with any of these lists, except those that list Oscar Robertson. In our opinion, with no specific order, the 5 most valuable players are: Hakeem, Isiah Thomas, Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal and Alex English. We are talking value here, not best player - The majority of these guys are still on their rookie deals and the lone player who isn't just happens to be the reigning MVP who is just entering his prime and signed to a good deal. KAJ/Hayes are good choices but there price tags make them less valuable, even though KAJ signed for cheap, it was a toss-up between him and Shaq and I think most teams would chose the latter.
San Fran - 7, London - 6, Chicago - 5, Aoshen 5, Cairo - 3, PartiZan - 1 and Boston - 1.
Question 2: Who do you think is the most overrated player and who is the most underrated player in this draft?
San Fran: Most Overrated Player: Grant Hill. It may just be my scout, but I don’t see why he went second overall as he is seems to do everything well, but nothing at an elite level. I also worry about guys with only average athletic ability. Disclaimer my scout is only a B+ in potential so who knows how accurate he is as I am more interested in current ratings this season.
Most Underrated Player: Terrell Brandon. Yes he is going to have to work on his perimeter shooting, especially his jumper but he is lightning quick and has elite potential as a pure PG. I think whoever gets Brandon in the draft is coming away with a long time starter who can easily be camped into an all-star type PG.
Boston: As much as it pains me to say this, I would have to say that the most overrated player in the league is none other than former Celtic, George "Iceman" Gervin. While he has averaged 18/5 in his career, his career is best defined by "bust". His numbers do next to nothing in terms of helping his team climb up in the win column, and he is not great at
anything. His offensive game is very limited, and his defense is non-existent.
London: Overrated - Antonio McDyess. I like his upside but I am not sure he ever gets there. Too much ground to cover and too many GMs don't understand Training Camp. He will go early in the draft and will probably have a solid career but may never live up to his pre-draft hype. Freak athlete though. He can probably get by on that for a while.
Underrated - Nate McMillin. Everybody loves Nate Mac. His defense and ball handing remind people of a young Jerry Sloan. You could do a lot worse for yourself than taking the next Jerry Sloan in the Top 12. He may slide further than that. Every team can use a player like this.
Cairo: Most Overrated : Larry Johnson - I feel like there is one of these players in every draft. A guy who can score and is incredibly athletic but a huge liability on the defensive end. Larry could be one of the best 6th men in the league but he is going to be a liability on defense.
Most Underrated : Nate McMillan - I think McMillan is a plug and play starter from day 1 with his incredible defense and size. He can play SG and some spot minutes at the point as well. His ceiling isn't very high but you are getting a great distributor and defender out the box.
Aoshen: It may seem far fetched but I'm going with Toni Kukoc as the most overrated in this draft. He is 6'10" yet has almost no inside game right now and is limited on defense. He has some potential but whether or not it gets recognized is a different story. I think Sprewell is a close 2nd though. As for the most underrated player, I have to go with Jeff Hornacek. No one is talking about him at all and yet he is one of the most ready now contributors in the draft. No he wouldn't be a premier scorer right off the bat but he would be an amazing offensive punch off the bench as arguably the best shooter in this draft and has the potential to backup the PG spot as well.
Chicago: The most overrated player is Vlade Divac. He’s been throw around as a lotto pick but he’s extremely raw with a limited ceiling outside of his stellar passing. On the flip side, as good as Mourning and Payton are, I think Penny ends up as the better player. His 6’7’’ size is being underlooked and he can do it all.
partiZan: The most overrated player in the draft is Alonzo Mourning. While he provides typical big man skills, he gives you nothing else in a league that continues to prove how valuable players who do more than one or two things are. The most underrated player is Terrell Brandon (call this the NBA JAMS effect). Super quick PG who can defend and distribute at an elite level while giving you some scoring is normally Top 10, this time you'll find him around the teens. That's insane value.
Moderator: This is a tough choice but I'm going with Grant Hill for overrated. He strikes me as a guy similar to James Worthy and he is getting picked on some attributes I just don't see. As for underrated, both Terrell Brandon and Nate McMillan are good choices and both are now so underrated they are probably going to be overrated.
San Fran - 7, Cairo - 6, Chicago - 5, London - 4, PartiZan - 3, Aoshen - 2 and Boston - 1.
Question 3: If you could select 1 current ABCA player to start a franchise with today, who would it be and why?
San Fran: Alex English. Best player in the prime of his career aka past 26 so I know what I am getting for the next 5+ seasons and he can do it all. A close 2nd would be Michael Jordan, the stability of English was the deciding factor.
Boston: I would have to say the #1 pick in this year's draft would be the cornerstone for a team that is, to quote Drake, starting from the bottom. He is the definition of a young superstar and is most definitely a player come once in a decade, maybe even two, in regards to his size and the impact he will have in the league inside the painted area right from day 1 all through his career.
London: Michael Jordan. The league's thinnest position is Shooting Guard and Jordan might be the best prospect at that position going forward. There are a lot of prospects to like so there is no wrong answer its more about your own style of play. I haven't build around a Jordan-type before and now I want to try that challenge. See if I can find a new way to win games.
Cairo: I'm probably biased but I'd have to go with Ralph Sampson. There isn't another player his size who moves like a small forward. He can score, defend, and block shots. The most impressive thing about him to me is his field goal pecentage, and just how efficient he is.
Aoshen: Hakeem Olajuwon. He's a center, an elite scorer, and really good at everything else too. Only in his second year and he is one of the best players in the league. Building a franchise around him would be the easiest thing IMO. A 26.4 PER and 20.6 EWA as a sophomore... the numbers kinda speak for themselves. My follow up would be MJ, similar reasons.
Chicago: Given the uncertainty of TC these days, I’ll choose someone ready to go now. WIth apologizes to Dr. J, Kareem, VInko, Bias, WIlkins, and some others, I have to take Alex English. He’s got some years left and instantly makes you a contender.
Amzing scorer? Check. Competent rebounder? check. Elite big man passer? Check. Range from 3? Check. Gets blocks and steals? Check. (almost 2 a game for both...I don't think there is another player in the league that is close to 2/2...maybe Bobby Jones. But fuck Bobby Jones.
partiZan: If I could start a Franchise with 1 player it would be Shaq. You'd get a rookie deal plus rights (essentially 7-9 seasons) of what appears to be an elite player skill, size, and athleticism wise. Not to mention how cheap he'll be for the first four years which provides you with room to add veterans nobody wants and compete with ease.
Moderator: Wow, another tough question here with the only wrong answer being Ralph Sampson (sorry, Cairo). Personally, it's a toss-up between Hakeem and English with a slight edge towards Hakeem for his potential impact lasting another 9-10 years versus English 5-7.
Aoshen - 7, San Fran - 6, Chicago - 6, PartiZan 4, Boston - 3, London - 2 and Cairo - 1.
Question 4: Which GM do you find the easiest to talk trade with and most difficult? Provide explanations.
San Fran: Easiest to talk trade with is Bayi. Doesn’t always work out but always get responses and usually back and forth offers and the talks are always fun. Many others are easy to deal with even if we don’t deal. My biggest thing is getting quick responses, talking it out if there is something there to discuss and not feeling like there is no room to negotiate.
Hardest to talk trade with Tehran. Doesn’t seem to respond all that often and when he does the offers often seem to be so one sided in his favor that I feel like there is nowhere to go in terms of talks. Seems nice enough when we do talk but just really hard to ever get anything done.
Boston: I have not yet had a bad experience with any GM in the league, on the contrary, enjoying discussions with many. While I would tip my hat off to London's GM, I may be called out due to him also being our beloved commissioner I really enjoy speaking with Indiana's GM: a fine gentleman who demonstrates patience and who truly seeks to be of assistance, not to mention very helpful in whatever hand he extends.
London: I find that if you talk honestly about the value of your players and what you can do with others makes it so that everyone is easy to talk to. I don't find a lot of roadblocks anymore except for the difference in value. In the past when a GM wouldn't sign on very often and a PM could take a few days. That doesn't happen much to me anymore and with the use of Skype it makes people even easier to get ahold of. Each team is going in different direction and has different needs. A 29 year old PG won't have much value as a team looking to put longterm talent with its new rookie but to a contender a 29 year old PG might be the missing piece. It's just about getting your asset to the right place for the most value.
Cairo: I just want to first off say that even if I think you are difficult to talk trade with, it doesn't mean you are a bad GM. I'm the type to just find a deal that works for my team and move on with it, so the GMs who have the same style I feel are easier to deal with. Some of the teams I've had deals completed with and found the process very friendly were San Antonio, Bayi, Brazil, Mexico City. On the other hand there are teams who want to get 8 different opinions and cause themselves paralysis by analysis, Buenos Aires, KK Partizan, Chicago Bulls, San Miguel all come to mind. Again, I enjoy discussing trade with all of you, some just suit my style better.
Aoshen: The easiest to talk trade with in my experience is Plossl (ALBA). While we don't get many trades done, he responds promptly, he counters instead of saying no outright, and he's not a shithead. As for the hardest, I have a laundry list of GMs who make trading the most miserable activity on the face of the earth. But I must say that the hardest person to trade with is Craig (Mahram). The only time he ever talks about a potential deal is when he absolutely wants something. Otherwise, it is like pulling teeth to get a response or even gauge his interest in a player/asset. I get that he has a busy life outside of the league, but so do most of us and yet we respond to PMs and Skype chats. COME ON CRAIG!
Chicago: By far the hardest to talk trade with is Tehran. The discussion always either goes one of two ways.
Me: Hey, what do you think of offer X?
Tehran: I don’t have interest in any of those players.
or
Tehran: Hey, here is an offer Y. I don’t have a lot of time so hurry up, I need to know now.
Me: ...
The GM who is easiest to talk trade with is Seer. Every single time we have gotten into serious discussions, we had excellent discourse and came to agreements quickly.
partiZan: The easiest to talk trade with is clearly Seer. He'll make a deal if it works and remotely makes sense. Always check with him before finishing something up. The hardest for me is always Mexico City. He knows what value he wants and we never seem to have a fit. Easy to contact, hard to trade with. Nothing wrong with that but still makes him difficult to trade with.
Moderator: Well, clearly everyone feels the same as the mod with Tehran/Craig being the most difficult to talk trade with. If Detroit was still here, he would have been a close runner up. As for easiest, I'm surprised that we had zero mentions of Cairo but you can't go wrong with either Bayi and/or ALBA, with Bayi getting the slight edge for his recklessness.
Chicago - 7, San Fran - 6, Aoshen - 5, PartiZan 4, Boston - 3, Cairo - 2 and London - 1.
Question 5: Who has the best logo in the league? Worst logo?
San Fran: Best logo is the Sonics, classic logo with the basketball and the city being identified by the Space Needle. Worst logo is Buenos Aires it looks like a child’s toy police officer badge.
Boston: Worst logo has to go to Toronto... I'm a Toronto native, and I'm not a fan of the diamond shaped template the logo has adopted at all...
London: London has the best. The Union Jack, the lion (a symbol of royalty and specifically Richard the Lionheart who built the London Towers), it's rad. I really like many of the logos in the league including but not limited to the Warriors, KK, Cairo, BCZ, Titans, Boston, Pacers, Bayi, Tehran, Istanbul, etc., they are all grat.
I don't care much for the current CSKA and the 76ers. There are others that aren't great but are well designed and are the real logos. CSKA and 76ers should have a lot of other options out there to pick from so I think there is something that can be done about those two which is what makes them great candidates for "the worst".
Cairo: Best : The new BCZ logo
Worst : Toronto Raptors (is that a troll attempt? it needs to go)
Aoshen: Best logo goes to Sydney. Hands down. I really dig the whole Poseidon look of the logo. It may also win based on a curve of improvement from the discolored Seattle logo he had before. Worst logo? Raptors. I say "ew" like Jimmy Fallon and Channing Tatum every time I look at it and I feel like I'm experiencing a stigmata. I would prefer he have a Jurassic Park logo despite the fact that a Tyrannosaurus Rex.
Chicago: KK Partizan has the best logo. No idea why he wants to change it. That thing is sick. Honorable mention goes to Bayi, San Francisco, Beijing, and the FIRST Moscow logo (someone please bring that back)
For worst logo, I hate Franca’s logo. Brazil should be green and yellow. There, I said it. Dishonorable mention goes to Istanbul, Athens, and mine. Mine sucks.
partiZan: The best logo in the league is the Seattle Supersonics. Colorful, classic, and makes sense with his city. It's both exciting and culturally relevant. The worst belongs to the London Towers. Logo is a Lion, team is the Towers. It makes no sense and is distasteful and has nothing to do with his team. Horrible.
Moderator: Clearly the best logo in the league is Sydney but close runner ups would be the new BcZ logo, Seattle and Mexico City. As far as worst logo, the new Toronto is pretty hideous but it's definitely not the worst, as that title easily belongs to ALBA and his hideous albatross. However, mentioning that London's logo does not come close to representing his team gives partiZan the nod in this category.
PartiZan - 7, Aoshen - 6, Cairo - 5, San Fran 4, Chicago - 3, London - 2 and Boston - 1.
Question 6: If there was 1 thing you could change in the game, what would it be and why?
San Fran: The ability to promote an assistant coach to head coach. My head coach retired this off-season I have an assistant coach I would love to move into the roll, give a raise etc., but apparently the only way to do it is to fire them and then try to rehire them as the head coach.
Boston: I would rig the lotto to get my #6 projected to drop to #1.
London: I'd like to see RFA worked in. We'd probably see just as many (if not more) MAX offers to force teams to match but it would give teams control of their players longer if they are worth keeping around. As it stands when a 5 year deal has been offered with max raises has been offered that player has always comes back to his original team. Still, it would be nice to have the ability to get them for 4 years with 4.5% - it would be a discount for some.
Also the ability to manually edit where the coaches signed, for how much, and for how long. That really ties our hands with how we work out our staffs. We can't fix mistakes easily. It's really just a nuisance I'll be honest.
Cairo: Add the ability to set your lineups for individual games!!
Aoshen: The one thing I would change in the game is the inability to "Propose Trade" during the offseason. It really does suck not being able to track the trades I'm making especially when JScott processes everyone else's trades but not mine But in all seriousness, it would make trading a lot easier in the offseason because I would be able to see who all can move based on salaries and what cap situations would work for the said trades.
Chicago: I’d change the predictability of the age at which players decline. Say what you want about TC deaths and jumps, you can argue it’s realistic and adds a risk element to tanking that we’ve never seen in the old FBB. However, it is not realistic to have guys systematically dead by 33 years old.
partiZan: The biggest thing I would change with the game would be the addition of restricted free agents. It would make much more sense for the guys who don't want to re-sign but aren't worth the max which is about 50% of the players or more. Could create some more fun in the off-season.
Moderator: I agree with everything said here except for Boston's lame answer. I award him 0 points and may god have mercy on his soul. I do think RFA is a huge need or at least some revisions to being able to offer contracts/resign your own players during the season is a higher priority.
London - 7, PartiZan - 7, Chicago - 5, San Fran - 4, Aoshen - 3, Cairo - 2 and London - 1.
Total Scores:
San Franciso Warriors: 34 points
Chicago Bulls: 31 points
Beijing Aoshen: 28 points
KK PartiZan: 26 points
London Towers: 22 points
Cairo Zamalek: 19 points
Boston Celtics: 10 points
Congrats to San Francisco! WOOO!
Question 1: In your opinion, who are the 5 most VALUABLE players in the league? This does not simply imply BEST player
San Fran: Great question because it is not going to be the best 5 players given how much youth and potential is valued in the league, along with what I am going to call brand recognition i.e. Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson etc.
1. Alex English - He’s the best player in the league, his team keeps winning and he is only 27 and locked up for multiple years still. Honestly, he is the that perfect zone of being fully developed but not yet getting into that “aging” area that people seem to be leery of.
2. Michael Jordan - His Airness was part of the biggest trade this past season in his rookie year and is a combination of elite athletic ability (A- or higher in all areas), age (23), skills, potential and name recognition. I would anticipate him being at the top of this list in the next couple of years.
3. Isiah Thomas - He carries an otherwise mediocre team, is arguably the best pure PG in the game at 23 and has the physical traits to be amazing. Simply put if he was ever floated on the trade market I think every other team would offer.
4. Hakeem Olajuwon - Super athletic center who has been a dominate player his first two years and is close to fully developed. Big men are always at a premium in the league and the comboniation of the his athletic ability, skills, name and age put him among the most valuable players in the league. List item 4
5. Shaquille O’Neal - This is the first guy who I think is clearly not a top 15 player in the league along with being the top 5 most valuable, but teams love the rookies every year and he is an elite combination of strength, offense and defense with his fatal flaw being his FT shooting. His name recognition is second on this list to only MJ and team’s love youth so there you have it.
Boston: From my limited experience in this league thus far, the odds are probably stacked up against my selections, but in any case, I think that the top-5 MVPs in the league, in no particular order, would have to be:
- Oscar Robertson: Simply well-rounded in all facets of the game and is the clearcut leader of his team, doing it all while guiding his teammates to follow suit,
- Patrick Ewing: A monster inside on both ends of the floor, whether it's scoring with efficiency, or anchoring his team inside on the defensive end, swatting shots and coming down with big boards. Scary to think he's only 21...
- Hakeem Olajuwon: Patrick's older (and better) brother. A beast who gets his job done on both ends. Any team with Hakeem manning the helm is going to have a problem on their hands trying to stop him or get by him. Oh, and he's only 23.
- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: The two things that impress me most about Kareem (other than his signature skyhook) is, firstly, his ability to reward his team with a very respectable free-throw percentage as teams hack away at him inside, trying to stop him from crashing the glass and cleaning up his team's mess, or bait them into fouling with great footwork; secondly, his incredible FG% that simply screams "efficiency". While his usage is second on the team (only by a mere 0.3%), there's no denying he makes the most of the possessions he's given.
- Elvin Hayes: It would be tragedic to leave him off this list and only have his teammate Kareem. Arguably THE most valuable player in the league. 26/11 a night, 3 blocks, low turnovers, low foul rate. It's too bad he's already 31, but he's most definitely got another year or two of utter dominance left, followed by a few years of play that most teams would pay a pretty penny for.
London: Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Robert Parish in no specific order. I went with Jordan and a bunch of bigs because I think those are the players more GMs would want to build around. Shaq was just drafted #1 and probably holds tremendous value to the Pacers who may never trade him. Jordan is still Jordan and looks elite at the league's thinnest position. Hakeem has put together two great seasons and has made LA legit. Parish has a ring and might be the most dominant young big in the league. Kareem is best big man in the league and until he is dethrowned there is a lot of value in that.
Cairo: I'm going to list the best player who I feel have the most value in the league at this time. Not necessarily the best players, because I'm taking into account age, contract and my gut feeling on who still has room to grow etc. I'm surely forgetting someone but you surely can't go wrong with these five players.
1) Hakeem Olajuwon - Best young player in the league, on his rookie contract.
2) Michael Jordan - Possibly the best back court player in the league, already averaging better than 25 plus.
3) Ralph Sampson - Has put up 23 and 10 so far in his career while shooting better than 60% from the field.
4) Alex English - Just lead the Sonics to his first ring, and still has about 3 years at an elite level.
5) Patrick Ewing - A solid anchor who hasn't even reached his full potential yet. When it's all said and done, I feel Ewing will have been one of the best.
Aoshen: In this order: Alex English, Hakeem Olajuwon, JoJo White, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Not only is English the best player in the league but he is also the best player on the best team. Sure some of the players behind him are better in certain categories but overall, any team with Alex English will be a good team. I cry every time I look at him... While Hakeem does have King backing him up, LA became an instant playoff team when he came aboard and became a contender after just two seasons. JoJo is still JoJo and putting up insane numbers while on the same team as Alex English, he can play anywhere on the perimeter. MJ returned London to the Eurasian Conference Finals with guns blazing and will likely eventually win a title in London. Finally KAJ, he has continued his run of great form except on a different continent this season. BA doesn't do as well as they did this year without him. Even if they had kept MJ, I dont think they have the record they did.
Chicago: Most valuable players should be defined as the players who add the most success to their team, without whom they would win far fewer games, players who truly elevate the play of their teams.. My list begins with Isiah Thomas. He has had a Madrid team in the playoffs the past two seasons despite very little talent around him. Next, we have the league’s best player, Kareem. BA has a bunch of super studs, but Kareem cannot be excluded from the top 5 in any category, he’s that good.
Hakeem Olajuwon is just a beast. Sure, King is good, but that team was lotto until Hakeem got there and became one of the league’s best. This list wouldn’t be complete without a Seattle player on it, and I’ll argue for both of them. Staying in the division, Alex English and JoJo White are both so incredibly versatile and valuable, no wonder Seattle has won as much as they have.
Isiah Thomas, Kareem Adbul Jabbar, Hakeem Olajuwon, Alex English, JoJo White
partiZan: In order, the five most valuable players in the league to me are:
1: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - He has consistently signed for less than the mac and is as dominant as you can desire a big man to me on both ends of the floor.
2: Oscar Robertson - Can play the 1 through 3 and provide elite numbers and efficiency. 7 All-League 1st teams in 9 years (injured 1 and 2nd team most recent). Biggest difference maker at the true wing/guard position in league history.
3: Elvin Hayes - 4 MVP's should speak for itself. Can win a game, series, or championship as the lead dog and seems to be getting better defensively as his career goes on.
4: Michael Jordan - Still on a rookie contract and already elite in many areas. His value comes from the 2 years left around 5 million dollars more than anything.
5: Shaquille O'Neal - Has not played a game but 4 years of what will be elite level production (so I assume) at the cost he'll be is extremely valuable.
Moderator: Well, you really can't go wrong with any of these lists, except those that list Oscar Robertson. In our opinion, with no specific order, the 5 most valuable players are: Hakeem, Isiah Thomas, Michael Jordan, Shaquille O'Neal and Alex English. We are talking value here, not best player - The majority of these guys are still on their rookie deals and the lone player who isn't just happens to be the reigning MVP who is just entering his prime and signed to a good deal. KAJ/Hayes are good choices but there price tags make them less valuable, even though KAJ signed for cheap, it was a toss-up between him and Shaq and I think most teams would chose the latter.
San Fran - 7, London - 6, Chicago - 5, Aoshen 5, Cairo - 3, PartiZan - 1 and Boston - 1.
Question 2: Who do you think is the most overrated player and who is the most underrated player in this draft?
San Fran: Most Overrated Player: Grant Hill. It may just be my scout, but I don’t see why he went second overall as he is seems to do everything well, but nothing at an elite level. I also worry about guys with only average athletic ability. Disclaimer my scout is only a B+ in potential so who knows how accurate he is as I am more interested in current ratings this season.
Most Underrated Player: Terrell Brandon. Yes he is going to have to work on his perimeter shooting, especially his jumper but he is lightning quick and has elite potential as a pure PG. I think whoever gets Brandon in the draft is coming away with a long time starter who can easily be camped into an all-star type PG.
Boston: As much as it pains me to say this, I would have to say that the most overrated player in the league is none other than former Celtic, George "Iceman" Gervin. While he has averaged 18/5 in his career, his career is best defined by "bust". His numbers do next to nothing in terms of helping his team climb up in the win column, and he is not great at
anything. His offensive game is very limited, and his defense is non-existent.
London: Overrated - Antonio McDyess. I like his upside but I am not sure he ever gets there. Too much ground to cover and too many GMs don't understand Training Camp. He will go early in the draft and will probably have a solid career but may never live up to his pre-draft hype. Freak athlete though. He can probably get by on that for a while.
Underrated - Nate McMillin. Everybody loves Nate Mac. His defense and ball handing remind people of a young Jerry Sloan. You could do a lot worse for yourself than taking the next Jerry Sloan in the Top 12. He may slide further than that. Every team can use a player like this.
Cairo: Most Overrated : Larry Johnson - I feel like there is one of these players in every draft. A guy who can score and is incredibly athletic but a huge liability on the defensive end. Larry could be one of the best 6th men in the league but he is going to be a liability on defense.
Most Underrated : Nate McMillan - I think McMillan is a plug and play starter from day 1 with his incredible defense and size. He can play SG and some spot minutes at the point as well. His ceiling isn't very high but you are getting a great distributor and defender out the box.
Aoshen: It may seem far fetched but I'm going with Toni Kukoc as the most overrated in this draft. He is 6'10" yet has almost no inside game right now and is limited on defense. He has some potential but whether or not it gets recognized is a different story. I think Sprewell is a close 2nd though. As for the most underrated player, I have to go with Jeff Hornacek. No one is talking about him at all and yet he is one of the most ready now contributors in the draft. No he wouldn't be a premier scorer right off the bat but he would be an amazing offensive punch off the bench as arguably the best shooter in this draft and has the potential to backup the PG spot as well.
Chicago: The most overrated player is Vlade Divac. He’s been throw around as a lotto pick but he’s extremely raw with a limited ceiling outside of his stellar passing. On the flip side, as good as Mourning and Payton are, I think Penny ends up as the better player. His 6’7’’ size is being underlooked and he can do it all.
partiZan: The most overrated player in the draft is Alonzo Mourning. While he provides typical big man skills, he gives you nothing else in a league that continues to prove how valuable players who do more than one or two things are. The most underrated player is Terrell Brandon (call this the NBA JAMS effect). Super quick PG who can defend and distribute at an elite level while giving you some scoring is normally Top 10, this time you'll find him around the teens. That's insane value.
Moderator: This is a tough choice but I'm going with Grant Hill for overrated. He strikes me as a guy similar to James Worthy and he is getting picked on some attributes I just don't see. As for underrated, both Terrell Brandon and Nate McMillan are good choices and both are now so underrated they are probably going to be overrated.
San Fran - 7, Cairo - 6, Chicago - 5, London - 4, PartiZan - 3, Aoshen - 2 and Boston - 1.
Question 3: If you could select 1 current ABCA player to start a franchise with today, who would it be and why?
San Fran: Alex English. Best player in the prime of his career aka past 26 so I know what I am getting for the next 5+ seasons and he can do it all. A close 2nd would be Michael Jordan, the stability of English was the deciding factor.
Boston: I would have to say the #1 pick in this year's draft would be the cornerstone for a team that is, to quote Drake, starting from the bottom. He is the definition of a young superstar and is most definitely a player come once in a decade, maybe even two, in regards to his size and the impact he will have in the league inside the painted area right from day 1 all through his career.
London: Michael Jordan. The league's thinnest position is Shooting Guard and Jordan might be the best prospect at that position going forward. There are a lot of prospects to like so there is no wrong answer its more about your own style of play. I haven't build around a Jordan-type before and now I want to try that challenge. See if I can find a new way to win games.
Cairo: I'm probably biased but I'd have to go with Ralph Sampson. There isn't another player his size who moves like a small forward. He can score, defend, and block shots. The most impressive thing about him to me is his field goal pecentage, and just how efficient he is.
Aoshen: Hakeem Olajuwon. He's a center, an elite scorer, and really good at everything else too. Only in his second year and he is one of the best players in the league. Building a franchise around him would be the easiest thing IMO. A 26.4 PER and 20.6 EWA as a sophomore... the numbers kinda speak for themselves. My follow up would be MJ, similar reasons.
Chicago: Given the uncertainty of TC these days, I’ll choose someone ready to go now. WIth apologizes to Dr. J, Kareem, VInko, Bias, WIlkins, and some others, I have to take Alex English. He’s got some years left and instantly makes you a contender.
Amzing scorer? Check. Competent rebounder? check. Elite big man passer? Check. Range from 3? Check. Gets blocks and steals? Check. (almost 2 a game for both...I don't think there is another player in the league that is close to 2/2...maybe Bobby Jones. But fuck Bobby Jones.
partiZan: If I could start a Franchise with 1 player it would be Shaq. You'd get a rookie deal plus rights (essentially 7-9 seasons) of what appears to be an elite player skill, size, and athleticism wise. Not to mention how cheap he'll be for the first four years which provides you with room to add veterans nobody wants and compete with ease.
Moderator: Wow, another tough question here with the only wrong answer being Ralph Sampson (sorry, Cairo). Personally, it's a toss-up between Hakeem and English with a slight edge towards Hakeem for his potential impact lasting another 9-10 years versus English 5-7.
Aoshen - 7, San Fran - 6, Chicago - 6, PartiZan 4, Boston - 3, London - 2 and Cairo - 1.
Question 4: Which GM do you find the easiest to talk trade with and most difficult? Provide explanations.
San Fran: Easiest to talk trade with is Bayi. Doesn’t always work out but always get responses and usually back and forth offers and the talks are always fun. Many others are easy to deal with even if we don’t deal. My biggest thing is getting quick responses, talking it out if there is something there to discuss and not feeling like there is no room to negotiate.
Hardest to talk trade with Tehran. Doesn’t seem to respond all that often and when he does the offers often seem to be so one sided in his favor that I feel like there is nowhere to go in terms of talks. Seems nice enough when we do talk but just really hard to ever get anything done.
Boston: I have not yet had a bad experience with any GM in the league, on the contrary, enjoying discussions with many. While I would tip my hat off to London's GM, I may be called out due to him also being our beloved commissioner I really enjoy speaking with Indiana's GM: a fine gentleman who demonstrates patience and who truly seeks to be of assistance, not to mention very helpful in whatever hand he extends.
London: I find that if you talk honestly about the value of your players and what you can do with others makes it so that everyone is easy to talk to. I don't find a lot of roadblocks anymore except for the difference in value. In the past when a GM wouldn't sign on very often and a PM could take a few days. That doesn't happen much to me anymore and with the use of Skype it makes people even easier to get ahold of. Each team is going in different direction and has different needs. A 29 year old PG won't have much value as a team looking to put longterm talent with its new rookie but to a contender a 29 year old PG might be the missing piece. It's just about getting your asset to the right place for the most value.
Cairo: I just want to first off say that even if I think you are difficult to talk trade with, it doesn't mean you are a bad GM. I'm the type to just find a deal that works for my team and move on with it, so the GMs who have the same style I feel are easier to deal with. Some of the teams I've had deals completed with and found the process very friendly were San Antonio, Bayi, Brazil, Mexico City. On the other hand there are teams who want to get 8 different opinions and cause themselves paralysis by analysis, Buenos Aires, KK Partizan, Chicago Bulls, San Miguel all come to mind. Again, I enjoy discussing trade with all of you, some just suit my style better.
Aoshen: The easiest to talk trade with in my experience is Plossl (ALBA). While we don't get many trades done, he responds promptly, he counters instead of saying no outright, and he's not a shithead. As for the hardest, I have a laundry list of GMs who make trading the most miserable activity on the face of the earth. But I must say that the hardest person to trade with is Craig (Mahram). The only time he ever talks about a potential deal is when he absolutely wants something. Otherwise, it is like pulling teeth to get a response or even gauge his interest in a player/asset. I get that he has a busy life outside of the league, but so do most of us and yet we respond to PMs and Skype chats. COME ON CRAIG!
Chicago: By far the hardest to talk trade with is Tehran. The discussion always either goes one of two ways.
Me: Hey, what do you think of offer X?
Tehran: I don’t have interest in any of those players.
or
Tehran: Hey, here is an offer Y. I don’t have a lot of time so hurry up, I need to know now.
Me: ...
The GM who is easiest to talk trade with is Seer. Every single time we have gotten into serious discussions, we had excellent discourse and came to agreements quickly.
partiZan: The easiest to talk trade with is clearly Seer. He'll make a deal if it works and remotely makes sense. Always check with him before finishing something up. The hardest for me is always Mexico City. He knows what value he wants and we never seem to have a fit. Easy to contact, hard to trade with. Nothing wrong with that but still makes him difficult to trade with.
Moderator: Well, clearly everyone feels the same as the mod with Tehran/Craig being the most difficult to talk trade with. If Detroit was still here, he would have been a close runner up. As for easiest, I'm surprised that we had zero mentions of Cairo but you can't go wrong with either Bayi and/or ALBA, with Bayi getting the slight edge for his recklessness.
Chicago - 7, San Fran - 6, Aoshen - 5, PartiZan 4, Boston - 3, Cairo - 2 and London - 1.
Question 5: Who has the best logo in the league? Worst logo?
San Fran: Best logo is the Sonics, classic logo with the basketball and the city being identified by the Space Needle. Worst logo is Buenos Aires it looks like a child’s toy police officer badge.
Boston: Worst logo has to go to Toronto... I'm a Toronto native, and I'm not a fan of the diamond shaped template the logo has adopted at all...
London: London has the best. The Union Jack, the lion (a symbol of royalty and specifically Richard the Lionheart who built the London Towers), it's rad. I really like many of the logos in the league including but not limited to the Warriors, KK, Cairo, BCZ, Titans, Boston, Pacers, Bayi, Tehran, Istanbul, etc., they are all grat.
I don't care much for the current CSKA and the 76ers. There are others that aren't great but are well designed and are the real logos. CSKA and 76ers should have a lot of other options out there to pick from so I think there is something that can be done about those two which is what makes them great candidates for "the worst".
Cairo: Best : The new BCZ logo
Worst : Toronto Raptors (is that a troll attempt? it needs to go)
Aoshen: Best logo goes to Sydney. Hands down. I really dig the whole Poseidon look of the logo. It may also win based on a curve of improvement from the discolored Seattle logo he had before. Worst logo? Raptors. I say "ew" like Jimmy Fallon and Channing Tatum every time I look at it and I feel like I'm experiencing a stigmata. I would prefer he have a Jurassic Park logo despite the fact that a Tyrannosaurus Rex.
Chicago: KK Partizan has the best logo. No idea why he wants to change it. That thing is sick. Honorable mention goes to Bayi, San Francisco, Beijing, and the FIRST Moscow logo (someone please bring that back)
For worst logo, I hate Franca’s logo. Brazil should be green and yellow. There, I said it. Dishonorable mention goes to Istanbul, Athens, and mine. Mine sucks.
partiZan: The best logo in the league is the Seattle Supersonics. Colorful, classic, and makes sense with his city. It's both exciting and culturally relevant. The worst belongs to the London Towers. Logo is a Lion, team is the Towers. It makes no sense and is distasteful and has nothing to do with his team. Horrible.
Moderator: Clearly the best logo in the league is Sydney but close runner ups would be the new BcZ logo, Seattle and Mexico City. As far as worst logo, the new Toronto is pretty hideous but it's definitely not the worst, as that title easily belongs to ALBA and his hideous albatross. However, mentioning that London's logo does not come close to representing his team gives partiZan the nod in this category.
PartiZan - 7, Aoshen - 6, Cairo - 5, San Fran 4, Chicago - 3, London - 2 and Boston - 1.
Question 6: If there was 1 thing you could change in the game, what would it be and why?
San Fran: The ability to promote an assistant coach to head coach. My head coach retired this off-season I have an assistant coach I would love to move into the roll, give a raise etc., but apparently the only way to do it is to fire them and then try to rehire them as the head coach.
Boston: I would rig the lotto to get my #6 projected to drop to #1.
London: I'd like to see RFA worked in. We'd probably see just as many (if not more) MAX offers to force teams to match but it would give teams control of their players longer if they are worth keeping around. As it stands when a 5 year deal has been offered with max raises has been offered that player has always comes back to his original team. Still, it would be nice to have the ability to get them for 4 years with 4.5% - it would be a discount for some.
Also the ability to manually edit where the coaches signed, for how much, and for how long. That really ties our hands with how we work out our staffs. We can't fix mistakes easily. It's really just a nuisance I'll be honest.
Cairo: Add the ability to set your lineups for individual games!!
Aoshen: The one thing I would change in the game is the inability to "Propose Trade" during the offseason. It really does suck not being able to track the trades I'm making especially when JScott processes everyone else's trades but not mine But in all seriousness, it would make trading a lot easier in the offseason because I would be able to see who all can move based on salaries and what cap situations would work for the said trades.
Chicago: I’d change the predictability of the age at which players decline. Say what you want about TC deaths and jumps, you can argue it’s realistic and adds a risk element to tanking that we’ve never seen in the old FBB. However, it is not realistic to have guys systematically dead by 33 years old.
partiZan: The biggest thing I would change with the game would be the addition of restricted free agents. It would make much more sense for the guys who don't want to re-sign but aren't worth the max which is about 50% of the players or more. Could create some more fun in the off-season.
Moderator: I agree with everything said here except for Boston's lame answer. I award him 0 points and may god have mercy on his soul. I do think RFA is a huge need or at least some revisions to being able to offer contracts/resign your own players during the season is a higher priority.
London - 7, PartiZan - 7, Chicago - 5, San Fran - 4, Aoshen - 3, Cairo - 2 and London - 1.
Total Scores:
San Franciso Warriors: 34 points
Chicago Bulls: 31 points
Beijing Aoshen: 28 points
KK PartiZan: 26 points
London Towers: 22 points
Cairo Zamalek: 19 points
Boston Celtics: 10 points
Congrats to San Francisco! WOOO!
