Post by Sydney on Jan 6, 2014 22:44:59 GMT -6
Sydney (AP) – With the 2017-2018 season winding down and the holidays behind us, it was time for a new roundtable to commence. There were less participants than originally expected but the usual crew is back to bring some thoughts to a wide ranging variety of questions. Being the judge, I will provide feedback to each participants answer and give a score of 1 to 4, 1 being the worst answer and 4 being the best. We will tally the total points at the end and since I'm the judge, I will ultimately declare a winner. The participants of this roundtable are KK Partizan, Chicago Bulls, New York Knicks & Mexico City Titans. Let’s get to it!
Question #1: Looking back at the creation draft and the uncertainties surrounding the new game and player ratings, name the 3 best picks and the 3 worst picks from this draft.
NYK: Don't really like to review things I wasn't around for but just quickly thumbing through the creation draft this is what I see:
The Best
- Neil Johnston this guy was never the best player in the league but he has always consistently been somewhere in the top 10. Even this year after starting slow, he is once again showing he's a top player in the league, putting his team in position to win another division title. That's just talking about his regular season accomplishments, in the playoffs he has led his team to 4 straight playoff appearances (only 1 other guy can hold that claim), and 2 championships of which he was the MVP of the finals. Picking him up at 16, makes this one of the best selections in the draft.
- Don Sunderlage: I almost missed this one, Don Sunderlage is a superstar in my eyes. The biggest reason for Boca's success, I feel if you remove him from Boca they are nowhere near the team they currently are. Don wasn't picked by Boca though so I almost didn't put it on here, but I just feel like from a talent standpoint getting him in the 2nd round was a steal for whoever drafted him. I feel he could have gone more than 20 spots higher, but again I don't know how good he was at the time of the draft. I wasn't around back then.
- Elgin Baylor: Pick the last one here was kind of hard but I went with Baylor because at 9 I think he was a steal. As much as I love Dolph, I would have went with Baylor if I was NY back then. Baylor is a superstar and is still extremely young. Baylor could have arguably went before everyone not named Wilt or Russell. But again I have no idea if Baylor looked as good as he does now, and he hasn't shown the same ability to constantly lead a team to the playoffs, as a good/decent seed. Only having a favorable seed once in 5 seasons, including this one.
The Worst
- Walt Bellamy: Outside of this first choice it was actually pretty hard to decide who were bad picks. But Walt Bellamy being selected over Mo Stokes, Elgin Baylor, Alex Groza, Clyde Lovelette, and Neil Johnston was a terrible pick. I feel if you were a top 10 pick, you should be someone that can be built around. Can anyone honestly say they can build a successful team with Bellamy as their main peice? No absolutely not.
- George Mikan: I like Mikan much like the 3rd selection on this list but factoring in his age and the people selected behind him, he was not the 4th best player in this draft. He still is performing at a solid level but you wonder would Tokyo have trended upward instead of downward, with someone like Pettit. Picking Mikan meant you had to go all in to win right away and Tokyo would win 48 games, get bounced in the 1st round and never look better. This pick wouldn't have looked as bad if Tokyo actually accomplished what they set out to do in the short term.
- John Beckman: Uh this was a hard one, I really only wanted to list 2 players. Beckman is a solid player who could be a nice #2 or #3 on a team I guess, but was he top 11 good? Absolutely not! I wold have taken pretty much anyone selected at 12-19 over him, with a few exceptions. He can score, but so can a lot of guys in this league. He's a PG that's really a SG and he's pretty old. I believe he was 28-29 when he was drafted. He possibly looked better in year one but again I'm basing this off of what I can see, which is anything from Year 3 to this year.
MC: Uggghh, creation draft questions make my head spin so frankly going back and rethinking all the picks made kill me. That said Ill do one good pick and one bad one per round. First the best pick of round 1 to me was the bulls and Neil Johnson, the guys won 2 rings, is the best player on that team by FAR and was picked in the middle of the round. Well done. Worst Pick of Round 1 clearly from the same trade and thats Walt Bellamy, the guy was taken ahead of Stokes, and Elgin Baylor two players that are in the top 10 best in the league, Walt barely starts now. Yuck. Best pick of round 2 I like the Monk Mieneke pick at 26, frankly the London draft was horrible overall looking back and he has managed to flipped his draft mistakes into wilt, hayes and co. Monk imo was great value, I will give honorable mention to Don Sunderlage here who was given away by a new Beijing gm in possibly the biggest trade heist we just do not talk about. Worst pick of Round 2... Ed Fleming. A fringe starter at best, and taken way to high its as simple as that. Now onto round 3. Best pick here? George Yardley, yardley was a key member in REAL's title run the first year and a huge player for them up until he was forced to rebuild. Worst pick of round 3 belongs to Beijing. Larry Foust has never really been a starter in this league and though he has big time name cache he just never lived up to it.
partiZan: The worst pick is still the Atlanta pick of Walt Bellamy at 7. Trading up for him and tacking him over a few players who are better now and were then as well is still mind boggling. It is likely the reason we don’t have a Hawks franchise anymore. Two other terrible picks are Vladmir Pistalek in the 2nd by KK Partizan and Dick Schnittker in the 3rd by the 76ers.
The best pick of the draft is Elgin Baylor to Boston at 9. Anytime you piss London off, it is a good pick. Either way, he’s been the best Small Forward from the get go and is still young. Tom Heinsohn in the 5th to Toronto would be 2nd on my list followed by George Yardley in the 3rd by Real Madrid.
Chitown: My answers will be partially based on draft spot, so Wilt’s not going to get love since you couldn’t do any better at #1 as he was a no-brainer. I’d like to dispel a couple of “probable candidates” for worst pick first. Mikan and Beckman are likely to be named because they got old quickly, but I disagree. A very valid creation draft strategy is to go for the championship right away…championships are not easy to win, even with a team full of youth, and Beckman and Mikan were both were arguably the best player in year 1. Tokyo and Tel Aviv were able to put together solid but not spectacular teams that won 48 and 47 games in year 1 respectively (and only 1 team won more than 53), but it was their other selections that prevented them from making deep playoff runs the first couple years.
At #3 worst pick, and this might be a bit of personal preference, I have Richie Guerin (#3 worst). He plays no defense, was worse than other “ready now” wing options available (Arizin), and has fallen into mediocrity (under 10 ppg this year and not starting). He was never close to being the best player on a championship team, so I would have gone with someone younger in the first round. The second worst selection was I’d say was Walter Dukes (#2 worst), because, although he was the last pick of the first round, he still is a career 11/9 player with C post defense. Passing on Max Z, and Don Sunderlage, you can’t excuse a pick like that, even if it was last in round 1, because the difference in talent is bigger than for any other selection. Easily the worst selection, not only because of how the player performed but also because he traded a 2nd round creation pick for a 4th round pick to move up for him was that of Walt Bellamy (#1 worst), who has had career underwhelming averages of 12 pts and 9 reb, when you have guys like Stokes, Baylor, Groza, Lovelette, and Johnston go after him. He looked good and it would have much more forgivable if the GM hadn’t gambled on him too much for being 7’0’. (Which was the reason I was told by that GM at the time that he preferred Bellamy over Stokes)
The 3rd best selection was (old) Beijing taking Don Sunderlage (#3 best) in the 2nd round, who has turned into a franchise player (I still can’t believe how cheaply BA got him from (new) Beijing when that GM blew it up). I have to give myself a pat on the back and call Neil Johnston (#2 best) the pick of the creation draft. No other player of his caliber went in his range, and he simply has had the most success out of any player. In the playoffs every year, 2 rings, 2 playoff MVPs, 4 allstar appearances, 2 all-ABCA teams, 1 all-defense. No one player can match that. However, given value per pick, Neil loses to the next guy. Toronto snagged Tommy Heinsohn (#1 best) in the 5th (fifth!) round…who has put up 20/10 consistently from year 1 until BA ruined him by putting him at SF (just kidding). Heinsohn is 13th in career points and 7th in career rebounds at this point…just nuts that he went #121 overall.
Anaylsis: It seems everyone hit most of these picks on the head, however, the omission of Tom Heinsohn from ANY list cost the GM some points. When looking back at drafts in hindsight, to me it was critical for a GM to come away with a player in the first round who could be a cornerstone for their team. Chitown makes a great point in validating the selections of Beckman/Mikan were integral in helping their respective teams win right away, so to me those picks are validated. Walt Bellamy is a definite for worst pick but I also like Walter Dukes as a choice. He has been mediocre and multiple guys selected in round two have been significantly better and this alone makes Chitown the winner of this question. partiZan was a close second as his list was also spot on. MC came in at third solely due to missing on Tommy H and NYK is unfortunately 4th but to his credit, he wasn’t here at the time so he was already fighting an uphill battle to win this question.
Chitown: 4; partiZan: 3; MC: 2; NYK: 1
Question #2: If all current players retired today and a Hall of Fame vote ensued, who would you vote in? Please list a minimum of 3 players and no more than 10.
NYK: Okay lets start with the obvious, players with overall team success.
- Wilt Chamberlain: This is obvious because he is a 1 time champion, the all-time leading scorer, holds the record for most points in a single game at 63, a 5 time all-star, was on a team that won 22 games straight and 19 games straight, and his team holds the league record of 66 wins in a season. In only 5 seasons he has clearly left his mark.
-Neil Johnston: Spoke about him in the previous question, but Neil is a 2 Time Champion and a 2 Time Finals MVP, that is enough to get him into the HOF over any other options. But he is also the 3rd all-time leading scorer in the league's history and a 4 time all-star, and has never missed the playoffs.
Players that have an argument
- Bill Russell: I don't think it'd be hard to argue Russell into the Hall of Fame, just off of his solo-achievements. He is a 3 time DPOY, a 1 time All-League First Teamer and a 2 time All-League Second Teamer. He is the career leader in blocks, leading the league 3 seperate years. The
career leader in rebounds, leading the league 2 seperate years. He is also a MVP and a 5-time all-star. What keeps him from being in the category with Neil and Wilt is his team has never had great success, like a team led by Russell should.
- Both the other MVPs, Dolph Schayes and Bob Cousy can also make a case. Schayes is a 1-time Most Valuable Player, 2 time All-League First Teamer, 5-Time All-Star, 4th in all-time scoring, 6th in all-time rebounding, and 7th in all-time blocks. He is a step below the other 3 guys but if his career ended today, the case could be made.
- Cousy is a 1-time Most Valuable Player, 3-time All-League First Teamer, 5-time All-Star, 4 time Defensive-First Teamer, the all-time assist leader, leading the league there 4 times, and the all-time steals leader, leading the league there 3 times. He's top 25 in all-time scoring and the only man to have more than 3 Triple Doubles, with 23 total. Cousy again is someone who hasn't had much playoff success, never making it passed the 1st round in 4 tries. So that could definitely hurt his HOF bid. But the indivudual success is there.
MC: Im starting to understand why this roundtable has taken so long for guys to complete, these lists are brutal. Hall of Fame right now, easy Wilt, Pettit, Russell, Cousy, Shayes, Johnson off the top of my head.
partiZan: Wilt Chamberlin, Bill Russell,Bob Cousy, Neil Johnston, Dolph Schayes, Frank Selvy, Elgin Baylor,Bob Pettit
Chitown: Given we have only played 4.5 seasons, there are only 3 “locks” as hall of famers if this was their last season, primarily for different reasons: offense, defense, and winning. Wilt Chamberlain is the most dominant offensive player the league has ever seen (Career PER of 31.2 is the only PER over 30 and nearly 5 points higher than anyone who has been in the league at least 2 full seasons). He also has a title. Bill Russell is a three time DPOY, and unlike his real-life counterpart, is a 2 way player as he actually has a great true shooting % (.634 vs. .471 in real life). His team is also third in all-time winning %. Finally, Neil Johnson has won 2 titles as the team’s undisputed best player, and won 50 games 4 times and 60 games twice. He has the 5th best career PER. Other players currently need more longevity / wins / accolades, but should get there: Pettit and Cousy, who are the closest and has a good case based on balanced profiles, followed by a group of Oscar, KAJ, Hayes, Stokes, Schayes, and Baylor who will definitely get there.
Analysis: This question ultimately comes down to each GM’s personal idea of what constitutes a HOFer. The shocking omission of Mo Stokes as a definite from every GM here is rather shocking to me as a career 21/10 guy with 2 all league first teams and 3 all league defense first teams just screams HOFer. I initially liked partiZan’s list but what in the world is Frank Selvy doing on there?! This player alone unfortunately drops partiZan to second worst list. MC has the best list since he has the main guys and Pettit. I don’t agree with Chitown on the players he feels need more accolades, specifically Stokes/Schayes/Baylor as they are definitely worthy right now. NYK comes in second as his list is missing a few players but overall I agree with the ones he listed and the reasoning.
MC: 4; NYK: 3; partiZan: 2; Chitown:1
Question #3: With the majority of the top talent already created for the 2018 draft, please list your top 3 players and the order in which you'd select them.
NYK: - "Dr. J" Julius Erving: He's the only immediate star I see in this draft. Meaning he could go to a good or bad team and be a key piece to helping them win. I know this year we've seen guys go to bad teams and put up insane numbers, but I think Dr. J would do it regardless of where he suited up at. Whoever gets him whether it be Athens, LA, KK Partizan, Franca BC, Washington or REAL, would immediately have their best player, and someone who'll easily be one of the better players in the league.
-George "The Iceman" Gervin: I know this is where Moses is slotted for most, he may eventually move into my top 2 after this, because i'll hear a lot of people state their case for him. But I feel like Gervin is going to tear up the league. He's a 6'7, 191 lb wing with the quickness to guard any 2 and the strength to guard any 3. His defense isn't great yet, but he has the potential to improve. But I believe his athletic ability and size will help mask whatever defensive shortcomings he has at this point
-Moses Malone: Moses wasn't even in my top 3 originally, but after looking him over, I may be being a bit too hard on him. I think I was originally going to go with the 7 footer, Bill Walton and I still think it can be argued for him here. Malone will be a solid scorer, never put up big numbers but he'll be efficient. He is going to rebound and eventually be a great defender if he lives up to his potential. But I just think of the top 3, he presents the most risk, with his selection.
MC: In this draft right now its Dr. J, and Moses the clear top 2. As for the 3rd guy it will come down to the team and its between Gervin, Walton and Mcadoo. It comes down to what you want, a scoring sf whos position is a clear league wide weakness. Bill Walton a 7 foot center, who is gonna be a great defender/ rebounder. and Bob Mcadoo probably the best scorer in this overall draft class.
partiZan: Julius Erving, Moses Malone, George Gervin
Chitown: Without question, I’d name Julius Erving (#1 prospect) the best player in the draft. The first half-decade of this league has shown how important big men are, but I think Erving will help lead a shift toward the importance of versatile wings (along with Frazier now, and Larry Bird in a couple years) At #2, I will go with Moses Malone (#2 prospect), who is not going to be a dominant scorer but should be very effective (think a rich man’s Bob Boozer). We’re talking 18/11, with elite defense, and potentially the best player on a highly balanced scoring team. At #3, I will go with George Gervin (#3 prospect), who has elite athleticism for a guard and the size of a small forward. He’s going to be a matchup nightmare on offense, and probably adequate on defense, especially with his athleticism and length. A wildcard player could be Bob Pettit, who I think has the chance to be the best offensive player in this draft, but questions on his ability to guard big men are very much there.
Analysis: To me, the order goes Dr. J, Moses Malone and then a toss up between McAdoo, Gervin & Walton. MC hits this one right on the head and correctly points out that #3 will go to a team based on what they want/need. Gervin/McAdoo/Walton each have there drawbacks but they are interchangeable in my eyes. I don’t see Dr. J going anywhere but 1 as he will challenge Baylor for the top SF in the league almost immediately and Moses Malone is just too young and too good to pass up. I’m a HUGE Moses fan and expect him to be in the Jerry Lucas category of PF’s in the league in as soon as 2 years. I don’t see Gervin going ahead of him since he is a big SG disguised as a SF and Moses just has too much potential to pass up for a rebuilding squad. Therefor, it goes MC, Chitown, partiZan & then NYK. I awarded #2 to Chitown simply because he provided some rationale for his choices.
MC: 4; Chitown: 3; partiZan: 2; NYK: 1
Question #4: Who is your most surprising team of the 2018 season and your biggest disappointing team.
NYK: This was probably the easiest question to answer for me. The most surprising team is Zamalek and the most disappointing team is the Boston Celtics. Zamalek won 46 games last year and in my eyes lost more talent than they acquired (but really the talent going in and out wasn't really impressive). But now they are at 41-20, meaning they should easily eclipse last years record with 21 games left on their schedule. What's even more surprising is you can't put it soley on Bill Russell's shoulders as the reason they are doing better because he is having a down year efficiency wise. Sandro is having a career year and has all of a sudden become deadly from long range hitting 41% on 4.1 attempts per game, when before he was a career 30% shooter from distance. Looking at their roster I don't think anyone pegged them for one of the best teams in the league, but this year they are up there.
The Boston Celtics have had a disappointing year, no matter how you flip it. They may get into the playoffs as the 8th seed over the Titans, but from the Celtics GM's own mouth "After back to back second round exits, anything short of a conference championship birth is a letdown". Now they are faced with the potential of not making the playoffs at all. A team with Elgin Baylor, Jerry Lucas, Willis Reed, 2x Champion Al Cervi, and Monk Meineke should be be better than 28-30. Many thought they'd be challenging for the Northern Division but for most of the year they've been one of only two teams in that division under .500, along with the Huskies. It's a good thing Baylor is only 25, and on a 4 year contract, so their window won't shut close for a long time. But for the 2nd year in the row, this team has been the most disappointing team in the league.
MC: Looking around the league a few teams stand out as having great seasons. Cairo to me though is the biggest surprise, kinda a shock to myself actually considering this has been a top 4 team in Eurasia for a long time. That said besides Bill Russell who on this team excites anyone? Thats why I picked them as the biggest surprise. As for dissapointment, its easy, its my team the Mexico Titans. Going into the year clearly they looked to be a top 3-7 team in America, and now they are currently fighting it out with the other dissapointing team Boston to even get into the playoffs. I guess one of the 9 solid teams going into the playoffs was going to miss and Mexico was as good a choice as any, but in the end I figured they'd get in without a huge fight. So far they have not.
partiZan: Buenos Aires at 45-9 and only 3 games behind the absurd season London is having is absolutely shocking to me. Especially since they’ve played 33 games on the road and only 21 at home while London has 28 on road and 26 at home! The biggest disappointment to me is Mahram. I know it can be blamed on injuries but after a promising season last year. They are only 4 games above .500 while I figured they would be competing for the number one seed.
Chitown: I was quite surprised by Cairo’s turnaround after doing very little other than resigning Russell, but I’ll pick a likely lesser spoken team in Berlin ALBA (#1 surprise). This team is now 3-0 against London and on pace for 60 wins. I knew he’d be a serious playoff team after the rebuild, but I was not convinced it would be championship caliber. 3 wins over the best team, and shooting for 60 total tells me otherwise.
The most disappointing team also has a few candidates like Tehran and Mexico City, but I have to go with Boston Celtics (#1 disappointment), which is going to be a popular choice, but you can’t go with a curveball for every question when there is a clear right answer. Boston had 3 top 25 players and has played sub 500 ball, and when they decided to break up by the big 3 (by trading the correct player in my opinion), they still haven’t been able to make it work. The issue is partially acquiring talent, as Free agency was not very successful, but the bigger reason by far is that the coach just hasn’t been able to make this team gel. Corey is rolling over in his grave.
Analysis: I’m kind of surprised at the lack of mentions towards SA Spurs & Philly 76ers as both teams have come from the bottom to the top, similarly to ALBA. Although I expected regression from Cairo myself, I’m not that surprised they are doing okay considering the lack of competitive teams in their division. BA is not surprising to me either considering they have a pretty stacked roster from top to bottom. With that being said, the winner of this is MC, as he choses himself as most disappointing and he is dead on. Playing in the arguably the WORST division in the league, he is 9 games below .500 after preseason predictions of top 5. Everyone wants to harp on Boston, which I admit is also underwhelming this season but their division is hands down the toughest in the league. I will say Chitown had the second best list, since they had ALBA/Boston , followed by NYK and then partiZan. Not quite sure Tehran is disappointing, especially since he’s stayed above .500 even with multiple devastating injuries.
MC: 4; Chitown: 3; NYK: 2; partiZan: 1
Question #5: Who is the most underrated player in ABCA? Who is the most overrated player in ABCA?
NYK: Another one that is a bit difficult to answer but i'll give it a try. The most underrated player in the league? Can't give one specifically but i'd probably say one of the "curse players" because I think some guys really buy into it. Whether that be Joe Fulks, Bill Spivey, or to a lesser extent Jack Twyman. The game has all 3 of these guys rated by the color system like stars, when they aren't, so I understand that and Fulks and Spivey are getting paid a bit too much. But it seems at times people really buy into the curse thing by calling these guys scrubs or point to the fact that they are on a roster as the reason a team is under performing, despite them never really being a focal point. Spivey is having an great year now that he actually receives minutes, putting up 10.4 PPG - 11.8 RPG - 2.0 BPG, CSKA is a .500 team but did anyone expect them to be better? Fulks has been on Detroit, ALBA, and is now on the 76ers helping them play some solid basketball. Throughout the year he's put up 18.8 PPG - 4.8 RPG - 2.1 SPG on nice efficiency. He is not suited to lead a team but anyone who wouldn't want this guy on their team just because his name or who is he, is crazy and it seems there are a decent amount of those. Twyman is putting up 14 PPG - 6.3 RPG - 1.3 SPG as a non-option and did similar numbers last year as a non-option on a 52 win team, his efficiency is solid and believe it or not since coming to NY has played solid defense. Again none of these guys are stars but I feel they are a lot better than people make them out to be.
The most overrated player? Uh Idk maybe Groza but it seems that after a second disappointing year from a individual standpoint his value has dropped a bit. I also think Bob Boozer may have taken a step back from the year before that hasn't been noticed by everyone yet. These two are still good players but they aren't nearly as good as they were a year or two ago.
MC: Hal Greer to me is the most underrated player in the league. There are a lot of choices here, but Greer continues to play at a high all star level every year and rarely if ever gets talked about. Greer is a huge reason for the success for ALBA and their ability to make trades around him and still improve shows how important and good he is. As for the most overrated player in the league. Right now its Bob Boozer at least to me. He was a key piece to Detroit when added to Stokes and Oscar but he continues to decline each year, and really is not the player gms thought he could be when drafted by London in round 1 of the creation draft. Clearly his play is down, his ratings are down and his trade value too. That does not boode well for a guy and team that could use him on a title chase.
partiZan: The most underrated player to me is Alexander Nikolic. Nobody ever discusses him as a top guard or player but he has continued to become a better point guard each season. His shooting percentages are down this season but that seems to be the case for most of the point guards in the league. His career PER is 20.0 which is very good for a guard.
The most overrated player is Satch Sanders who is slowly becoming average in everyones eyes finally. He provides you very little outside of shot blocking but is paid like a star (and MC wasn’t the only one willing to pay him what he did). A career 13.6 PER while averaging 3.8 fouls per game is pathetic for a big man.
Chitown: The most underrated player is Billy Cunningham (most underrated), who’s averaging a quiet 25/8/3. This guy is a top 25 player in true shooting % and PER, and a top 10 player in estimated wins added, plus an excellent rebounder at the SF position. His defense, given his athleticism, is passable. No one talks about him because he’s now in Moscow has been a pillar of mediocrity since their strong first season as a defensive juggernaut. (41, 42, and 42 wins over the last 3 years, and exactly at .500 this season) But he’s the reason they haven’t fallen off despite trading Belov. Finally, restating my public remarks after the London / Tehran trade, I think London made a huge mistake for trading a PF with top 5 potential at his position for a wildly overrated PG who is past his prime in Lenny Wilkins (most overrated). He has by far the worst PER among starting PGs at 11.1, and I don’t think two mid-late 1st round picks and a nice defensive specialist makes up for trading a 20/10 pillar for 10 seasons. The fact that people have been praising the move makes Lenny the most overrated player in the league.
Analysis: Wow, by far the toughest category to judge right now. I absolutely agree with MC, Chitown & partiZan on this one. Hal Greer to me is definitely the most underrated player in the league as he gets absolutely zero love from anyone. I’m not sure Billy Cunningham is underrated since he was a centerpiece to obtain Alexander Belov but I think his stats go unnoticed since CSKA isn’t as outspoken as some. Alexander Nikolic is definitely the most underrated PG, he left Washignton and they crumbled and he went to Tel Aviv and they made the playoffs with a pretty weak roster. What it came down to was the choice of overrated and partiZan is my choice for this. Satch Sanders makes the most money for a guy who is only capable of being a backup and he is barely even league average at that. Save for some blocks, he is too overrated and should be put in jail for stealing all that money. Lenny Wilkins is definitely my second choice, he’s declining and I’m not really a fan of guards who have a TS% barely above .500. To me Bob Boozer is overrated but people forget he’s still only 24 and is an elite defender. NYK has some good ideas but I think the curses are probably overrated based on names and Groza would be a lot better if he wasn’t playing with Heinsohn/Felix up front. PartiZan takes this home followed by Chitown, MC & NYK.
partiZan: 4; Chitown: 3; MC: 2; NYK: 1
Bonus Question: Which two cities would you like to see get an expansion team?
NYK: Really don't have a big opinion on this to be honest. I would like to see the NOLA Jazz get a team, because I think that everything about that franchise is cool. I also would like to see a foreign squad get a spot, but i'm not as familar as I should be with them, so I don't really know who should be the choice there, but I do feel it should be one NBA/ABA team like the New Orleans Jazz and a foreign team.
MC: In the americas there are plenty of choices and I'm fine with the Harlem GLobetroders getting a team if indeed thats where it goes. Its fun, its different and really there is no club thats out there in america that really has more global appeal as well as the brand name. I kinda like St. Louis as another choice mostly cause that was a key ABA team and is still getting paid by the NBA as per there buy out deal. No owner in any sport made such a deal as to get a % of NBA profits for life when the ABA/ NBA merger happened. Well done. As for the team in Eurasia frankly im not as well versed in the world game and its franchises, I do think a team in france or lithuania make sense though in terms of the global view of teams that could be needed.
partiZan: New Orleans – ABCA is about making things right. Jazz belong in NOLA.
BC Zalgiris – Euro Basketball without a team in Lithuania just makes no sense.
Chitown: I’ve heard a lot of arguments around this, and I do agree with trying to balance geographic diversity with historical relevance. I also think size of market is important, so that’s why I’d throw out NBA options like New Orleans and Indiana, which with 30 US NBA teams make sense, but when the world is supposed to be better represented, they don’t really at all. Thus, my top 2 choices are the Golden State Warriors for the Americas and Anadolu Efes S.K. (Turkey) for the Eurasian.
Starting with Golden State, it is the 5th largest metro area in the US with 8.3 million residents (the top 4 areas all have teams), the franchise has 3 titles (T-5th, NBA history) and some notable hall of famers you guys might recognize (Arizin, Barry, Wilt, Fulks, Johnston, Gola, Lucas, Thurmond, Wiilkes, B. King, and the more modern Chris Mullin.) Tons of our ABCA legends were on their team, so why aren’t they in our ABCA legends league?
Turkey has a rich basketball tradition, sending 8 players to the NBA (good for 14th place in the world outside the USA/Puerto Rico), and 11 of the 13 countries above them already have/had teams in ABCA. The others (Croatia, Lithuania) have strong cases but much smaller markets in terms of metro populations (Zagreb 1.1M, Kaunas 0.7M) whereas Istanbul has a metro pop of 13.8M. Turkey has also had great and recent success in international basketball when it hosted the 2010 FIBA World Championship, finishing second to the USA. Ersan ?lyasova, Hedo Türko?lu, Mehmet Okur, and Ömer A??k are all known NBA names. And have cool dots and squiggles around their names. Anadolu Efes is the most successful club in the history of the Turkish Basketball League, having won the league's championship 13 times. Although it has never won the Euroleague, it has competed in the Euroleague each of the past 17 years, and has been a quarterfinalist 6 times and a semifinalist once. I actually feel very strongly they should be the next team. Their logo is pretty cool too.
Analysis: No winner for the bonus question, this was simply to just give people a voice on where they feel expansion might be beneficial without having to write an article. Good job fellas.
Conclusion: The tally has been completed and the final scores reveal the Mexico City Titans as the winner of this seasons roundtable, following by the Chicago Bulls, KK PartiZan & New York Knicks, I appreciate everyone’s contributions to this article as these questions required research in order to complete. Thank you for reading this in its entirety and go Kings!
MC: 16; Chitown: 14; pArtiZan: 12; NYK: 8
Question #1: Looking back at the creation draft and the uncertainties surrounding the new game and player ratings, name the 3 best picks and the 3 worst picks from this draft.
NYK: Don't really like to review things I wasn't around for but just quickly thumbing through the creation draft this is what I see:
The Best
- Neil Johnston this guy was never the best player in the league but he has always consistently been somewhere in the top 10. Even this year after starting slow, he is once again showing he's a top player in the league, putting his team in position to win another division title. That's just talking about his regular season accomplishments, in the playoffs he has led his team to 4 straight playoff appearances (only 1 other guy can hold that claim), and 2 championships of which he was the MVP of the finals. Picking him up at 16, makes this one of the best selections in the draft.
- Don Sunderlage: I almost missed this one, Don Sunderlage is a superstar in my eyes. The biggest reason for Boca's success, I feel if you remove him from Boca they are nowhere near the team they currently are. Don wasn't picked by Boca though so I almost didn't put it on here, but I just feel like from a talent standpoint getting him in the 2nd round was a steal for whoever drafted him. I feel he could have gone more than 20 spots higher, but again I don't know how good he was at the time of the draft. I wasn't around back then.
- Elgin Baylor: Pick the last one here was kind of hard but I went with Baylor because at 9 I think he was a steal. As much as I love Dolph, I would have went with Baylor if I was NY back then. Baylor is a superstar and is still extremely young. Baylor could have arguably went before everyone not named Wilt or Russell. But again I have no idea if Baylor looked as good as he does now, and he hasn't shown the same ability to constantly lead a team to the playoffs, as a good/decent seed. Only having a favorable seed once in 5 seasons, including this one.
The Worst
- Walt Bellamy: Outside of this first choice it was actually pretty hard to decide who were bad picks. But Walt Bellamy being selected over Mo Stokes, Elgin Baylor, Alex Groza, Clyde Lovelette, and Neil Johnston was a terrible pick. I feel if you were a top 10 pick, you should be someone that can be built around. Can anyone honestly say they can build a successful team with Bellamy as their main peice? No absolutely not.
- George Mikan: I like Mikan much like the 3rd selection on this list but factoring in his age and the people selected behind him, he was not the 4th best player in this draft. He still is performing at a solid level but you wonder would Tokyo have trended upward instead of downward, with someone like Pettit. Picking Mikan meant you had to go all in to win right away and Tokyo would win 48 games, get bounced in the 1st round and never look better. This pick wouldn't have looked as bad if Tokyo actually accomplished what they set out to do in the short term.
- John Beckman: Uh this was a hard one, I really only wanted to list 2 players. Beckman is a solid player who could be a nice #2 or #3 on a team I guess, but was he top 11 good? Absolutely not! I wold have taken pretty much anyone selected at 12-19 over him, with a few exceptions. He can score, but so can a lot of guys in this league. He's a PG that's really a SG and he's pretty old. I believe he was 28-29 when he was drafted. He possibly looked better in year one but again I'm basing this off of what I can see, which is anything from Year 3 to this year.
MC: Uggghh, creation draft questions make my head spin so frankly going back and rethinking all the picks made kill me. That said Ill do one good pick and one bad one per round. First the best pick of round 1 to me was the bulls and Neil Johnson, the guys won 2 rings, is the best player on that team by FAR and was picked in the middle of the round. Well done. Worst Pick of Round 1 clearly from the same trade and thats Walt Bellamy, the guy was taken ahead of Stokes, and Elgin Baylor two players that are in the top 10 best in the league, Walt barely starts now. Yuck. Best pick of round 2 I like the Monk Mieneke pick at 26, frankly the London draft was horrible overall looking back and he has managed to flipped his draft mistakes into wilt, hayes and co. Monk imo was great value, I will give honorable mention to Don Sunderlage here who was given away by a new Beijing gm in possibly the biggest trade heist we just do not talk about. Worst pick of Round 2... Ed Fleming. A fringe starter at best, and taken way to high its as simple as that. Now onto round 3. Best pick here? George Yardley, yardley was a key member in REAL's title run the first year and a huge player for them up until he was forced to rebuild. Worst pick of round 3 belongs to Beijing. Larry Foust has never really been a starter in this league and though he has big time name cache he just never lived up to it.
partiZan: The worst pick is still the Atlanta pick of Walt Bellamy at 7. Trading up for him and tacking him over a few players who are better now and were then as well is still mind boggling. It is likely the reason we don’t have a Hawks franchise anymore. Two other terrible picks are Vladmir Pistalek in the 2nd by KK Partizan and Dick Schnittker in the 3rd by the 76ers.
The best pick of the draft is Elgin Baylor to Boston at 9. Anytime you piss London off, it is a good pick. Either way, he’s been the best Small Forward from the get go and is still young. Tom Heinsohn in the 5th to Toronto would be 2nd on my list followed by George Yardley in the 3rd by Real Madrid.
Chitown: My answers will be partially based on draft spot, so Wilt’s not going to get love since you couldn’t do any better at #1 as he was a no-brainer. I’d like to dispel a couple of “probable candidates” for worst pick first. Mikan and Beckman are likely to be named because they got old quickly, but I disagree. A very valid creation draft strategy is to go for the championship right away…championships are not easy to win, even with a team full of youth, and Beckman and Mikan were both were arguably the best player in year 1. Tokyo and Tel Aviv were able to put together solid but not spectacular teams that won 48 and 47 games in year 1 respectively (and only 1 team won more than 53), but it was their other selections that prevented them from making deep playoff runs the first couple years.
At #3 worst pick, and this might be a bit of personal preference, I have Richie Guerin (#3 worst). He plays no defense, was worse than other “ready now” wing options available (Arizin), and has fallen into mediocrity (under 10 ppg this year and not starting). He was never close to being the best player on a championship team, so I would have gone with someone younger in the first round. The second worst selection was I’d say was Walter Dukes (#2 worst), because, although he was the last pick of the first round, he still is a career 11/9 player with C post defense. Passing on Max Z, and Don Sunderlage, you can’t excuse a pick like that, even if it was last in round 1, because the difference in talent is bigger than for any other selection. Easily the worst selection, not only because of how the player performed but also because he traded a 2nd round creation pick for a 4th round pick to move up for him was that of Walt Bellamy (#1 worst), who has had career underwhelming averages of 12 pts and 9 reb, when you have guys like Stokes, Baylor, Groza, Lovelette, and Johnston go after him. He looked good and it would have much more forgivable if the GM hadn’t gambled on him too much for being 7’0’. (Which was the reason I was told by that GM at the time that he preferred Bellamy over Stokes)
The 3rd best selection was (old) Beijing taking Don Sunderlage (#3 best) in the 2nd round, who has turned into a franchise player (I still can’t believe how cheaply BA got him from (new) Beijing when that GM blew it up). I have to give myself a pat on the back and call Neil Johnston (#2 best) the pick of the creation draft. No other player of his caliber went in his range, and he simply has had the most success out of any player. In the playoffs every year, 2 rings, 2 playoff MVPs, 4 allstar appearances, 2 all-ABCA teams, 1 all-defense. No one player can match that. However, given value per pick, Neil loses to the next guy. Toronto snagged Tommy Heinsohn (#1 best) in the 5th (fifth!) round…who has put up 20/10 consistently from year 1 until BA ruined him by putting him at SF (just kidding). Heinsohn is 13th in career points and 7th in career rebounds at this point…just nuts that he went #121 overall.
Anaylsis: It seems everyone hit most of these picks on the head, however, the omission of Tom Heinsohn from ANY list cost the GM some points. When looking back at drafts in hindsight, to me it was critical for a GM to come away with a player in the first round who could be a cornerstone for their team. Chitown makes a great point in validating the selections of Beckman/Mikan were integral in helping their respective teams win right away, so to me those picks are validated. Walt Bellamy is a definite for worst pick but I also like Walter Dukes as a choice. He has been mediocre and multiple guys selected in round two have been significantly better and this alone makes Chitown the winner of this question. partiZan was a close second as his list was also spot on. MC came in at third solely due to missing on Tommy H and NYK is unfortunately 4th but to his credit, he wasn’t here at the time so he was already fighting an uphill battle to win this question.
Chitown: 4; partiZan: 3; MC: 2; NYK: 1
Question #2: If all current players retired today and a Hall of Fame vote ensued, who would you vote in? Please list a minimum of 3 players and no more than 10.
NYK: Okay lets start with the obvious, players with overall team success.
- Wilt Chamberlain: This is obvious because he is a 1 time champion, the all-time leading scorer, holds the record for most points in a single game at 63, a 5 time all-star, was on a team that won 22 games straight and 19 games straight, and his team holds the league record of 66 wins in a season. In only 5 seasons he has clearly left his mark.
-Neil Johnston: Spoke about him in the previous question, but Neil is a 2 Time Champion and a 2 Time Finals MVP, that is enough to get him into the HOF over any other options. But he is also the 3rd all-time leading scorer in the league's history and a 4 time all-star, and has never missed the playoffs.
Players that have an argument
- Bill Russell: I don't think it'd be hard to argue Russell into the Hall of Fame, just off of his solo-achievements. He is a 3 time DPOY, a 1 time All-League First Teamer and a 2 time All-League Second Teamer. He is the career leader in blocks, leading the league 3 seperate years. The
career leader in rebounds, leading the league 2 seperate years. He is also a MVP and a 5-time all-star. What keeps him from being in the category with Neil and Wilt is his team has never had great success, like a team led by Russell should.
- Both the other MVPs, Dolph Schayes and Bob Cousy can also make a case. Schayes is a 1-time Most Valuable Player, 2 time All-League First Teamer, 5-Time All-Star, 4th in all-time scoring, 6th in all-time rebounding, and 7th in all-time blocks. He is a step below the other 3 guys but if his career ended today, the case could be made.
- Cousy is a 1-time Most Valuable Player, 3-time All-League First Teamer, 5-time All-Star, 4 time Defensive-First Teamer, the all-time assist leader, leading the league there 4 times, and the all-time steals leader, leading the league there 3 times. He's top 25 in all-time scoring and the only man to have more than 3 Triple Doubles, with 23 total. Cousy again is someone who hasn't had much playoff success, never making it passed the 1st round in 4 tries. So that could definitely hurt his HOF bid. But the indivudual success is there.
MC: Im starting to understand why this roundtable has taken so long for guys to complete, these lists are brutal. Hall of Fame right now, easy Wilt, Pettit, Russell, Cousy, Shayes, Johnson off the top of my head.
partiZan: Wilt Chamberlin, Bill Russell,Bob Cousy, Neil Johnston, Dolph Schayes, Frank Selvy, Elgin Baylor,Bob Pettit
Chitown: Given we have only played 4.5 seasons, there are only 3 “locks” as hall of famers if this was their last season, primarily for different reasons: offense, defense, and winning. Wilt Chamberlain is the most dominant offensive player the league has ever seen (Career PER of 31.2 is the only PER over 30 and nearly 5 points higher than anyone who has been in the league at least 2 full seasons). He also has a title. Bill Russell is a three time DPOY, and unlike his real-life counterpart, is a 2 way player as he actually has a great true shooting % (.634 vs. .471 in real life). His team is also third in all-time winning %. Finally, Neil Johnson has won 2 titles as the team’s undisputed best player, and won 50 games 4 times and 60 games twice. He has the 5th best career PER. Other players currently need more longevity / wins / accolades, but should get there: Pettit and Cousy, who are the closest and has a good case based on balanced profiles, followed by a group of Oscar, KAJ, Hayes, Stokes, Schayes, and Baylor who will definitely get there.
Analysis: This question ultimately comes down to each GM’s personal idea of what constitutes a HOFer. The shocking omission of Mo Stokes as a definite from every GM here is rather shocking to me as a career 21/10 guy with 2 all league first teams and 3 all league defense first teams just screams HOFer. I initially liked partiZan’s list but what in the world is Frank Selvy doing on there?! This player alone unfortunately drops partiZan to second worst list. MC has the best list since he has the main guys and Pettit. I don’t agree with Chitown on the players he feels need more accolades, specifically Stokes/Schayes/Baylor as they are definitely worthy right now. NYK comes in second as his list is missing a few players but overall I agree with the ones he listed and the reasoning.
MC: 4; NYK: 3; partiZan: 2; Chitown:1
Question #3: With the majority of the top talent already created for the 2018 draft, please list your top 3 players and the order in which you'd select them.
NYK: - "Dr. J" Julius Erving: He's the only immediate star I see in this draft. Meaning he could go to a good or bad team and be a key piece to helping them win. I know this year we've seen guys go to bad teams and put up insane numbers, but I think Dr. J would do it regardless of where he suited up at. Whoever gets him whether it be Athens, LA, KK Partizan, Franca BC, Washington or REAL, would immediately have their best player, and someone who'll easily be one of the better players in the league.
-George "The Iceman" Gervin: I know this is where Moses is slotted for most, he may eventually move into my top 2 after this, because i'll hear a lot of people state their case for him. But I feel like Gervin is going to tear up the league. He's a 6'7, 191 lb wing with the quickness to guard any 2 and the strength to guard any 3. His defense isn't great yet, but he has the potential to improve. But I believe his athletic ability and size will help mask whatever defensive shortcomings he has at this point
-Moses Malone: Moses wasn't even in my top 3 originally, but after looking him over, I may be being a bit too hard on him. I think I was originally going to go with the 7 footer, Bill Walton and I still think it can be argued for him here. Malone will be a solid scorer, never put up big numbers but he'll be efficient. He is going to rebound and eventually be a great defender if he lives up to his potential. But I just think of the top 3, he presents the most risk, with his selection.
MC: In this draft right now its Dr. J, and Moses the clear top 2. As for the 3rd guy it will come down to the team and its between Gervin, Walton and Mcadoo. It comes down to what you want, a scoring sf whos position is a clear league wide weakness. Bill Walton a 7 foot center, who is gonna be a great defender/ rebounder. and Bob Mcadoo probably the best scorer in this overall draft class.
partiZan: Julius Erving, Moses Malone, George Gervin
Chitown: Without question, I’d name Julius Erving (#1 prospect) the best player in the draft. The first half-decade of this league has shown how important big men are, but I think Erving will help lead a shift toward the importance of versatile wings (along with Frazier now, and Larry Bird in a couple years) At #2, I will go with Moses Malone (#2 prospect), who is not going to be a dominant scorer but should be very effective (think a rich man’s Bob Boozer). We’re talking 18/11, with elite defense, and potentially the best player on a highly balanced scoring team. At #3, I will go with George Gervin (#3 prospect), who has elite athleticism for a guard and the size of a small forward. He’s going to be a matchup nightmare on offense, and probably adequate on defense, especially with his athleticism and length. A wildcard player could be Bob Pettit, who I think has the chance to be the best offensive player in this draft, but questions on his ability to guard big men are very much there.
Analysis: To me, the order goes Dr. J, Moses Malone and then a toss up between McAdoo, Gervin & Walton. MC hits this one right on the head and correctly points out that #3 will go to a team based on what they want/need. Gervin/McAdoo/Walton each have there drawbacks but they are interchangeable in my eyes. I don’t see Dr. J going anywhere but 1 as he will challenge Baylor for the top SF in the league almost immediately and Moses Malone is just too young and too good to pass up. I’m a HUGE Moses fan and expect him to be in the Jerry Lucas category of PF’s in the league in as soon as 2 years. I don’t see Gervin going ahead of him since he is a big SG disguised as a SF and Moses just has too much potential to pass up for a rebuilding squad. Therefor, it goes MC, Chitown, partiZan & then NYK. I awarded #2 to Chitown simply because he provided some rationale for his choices.
MC: 4; Chitown: 3; partiZan: 2; NYK: 1
Question #4: Who is your most surprising team of the 2018 season and your biggest disappointing team.
NYK: This was probably the easiest question to answer for me. The most surprising team is Zamalek and the most disappointing team is the Boston Celtics. Zamalek won 46 games last year and in my eyes lost more talent than they acquired (but really the talent going in and out wasn't really impressive). But now they are at 41-20, meaning they should easily eclipse last years record with 21 games left on their schedule. What's even more surprising is you can't put it soley on Bill Russell's shoulders as the reason they are doing better because he is having a down year efficiency wise. Sandro is having a career year and has all of a sudden become deadly from long range hitting 41% on 4.1 attempts per game, when before he was a career 30% shooter from distance. Looking at their roster I don't think anyone pegged them for one of the best teams in the league, but this year they are up there.
The Boston Celtics have had a disappointing year, no matter how you flip it. They may get into the playoffs as the 8th seed over the Titans, but from the Celtics GM's own mouth "After back to back second round exits, anything short of a conference championship birth is a letdown". Now they are faced with the potential of not making the playoffs at all. A team with Elgin Baylor, Jerry Lucas, Willis Reed, 2x Champion Al Cervi, and Monk Meineke should be be better than 28-30. Many thought they'd be challenging for the Northern Division but for most of the year they've been one of only two teams in that division under .500, along with the Huskies. It's a good thing Baylor is only 25, and on a 4 year contract, so their window won't shut close for a long time. But for the 2nd year in the row, this team has been the most disappointing team in the league.
MC: Looking around the league a few teams stand out as having great seasons. Cairo to me though is the biggest surprise, kinda a shock to myself actually considering this has been a top 4 team in Eurasia for a long time. That said besides Bill Russell who on this team excites anyone? Thats why I picked them as the biggest surprise. As for dissapointment, its easy, its my team the Mexico Titans. Going into the year clearly they looked to be a top 3-7 team in America, and now they are currently fighting it out with the other dissapointing team Boston to even get into the playoffs. I guess one of the 9 solid teams going into the playoffs was going to miss and Mexico was as good a choice as any, but in the end I figured they'd get in without a huge fight. So far they have not.
partiZan: Buenos Aires at 45-9 and only 3 games behind the absurd season London is having is absolutely shocking to me. Especially since they’ve played 33 games on the road and only 21 at home while London has 28 on road and 26 at home! The biggest disappointment to me is Mahram. I know it can be blamed on injuries but after a promising season last year. They are only 4 games above .500 while I figured they would be competing for the number one seed.
Chitown: I was quite surprised by Cairo’s turnaround after doing very little other than resigning Russell, but I’ll pick a likely lesser spoken team in Berlin ALBA (#1 surprise). This team is now 3-0 against London and on pace for 60 wins. I knew he’d be a serious playoff team after the rebuild, but I was not convinced it would be championship caliber. 3 wins over the best team, and shooting for 60 total tells me otherwise.
The most disappointing team also has a few candidates like Tehran and Mexico City, but I have to go with Boston Celtics (#1 disappointment), which is going to be a popular choice, but you can’t go with a curveball for every question when there is a clear right answer. Boston had 3 top 25 players and has played sub 500 ball, and when they decided to break up by the big 3 (by trading the correct player in my opinion), they still haven’t been able to make it work. The issue is partially acquiring talent, as Free agency was not very successful, but the bigger reason by far is that the coach just hasn’t been able to make this team gel. Corey is rolling over in his grave.
Analysis: I’m kind of surprised at the lack of mentions towards SA Spurs & Philly 76ers as both teams have come from the bottom to the top, similarly to ALBA. Although I expected regression from Cairo myself, I’m not that surprised they are doing okay considering the lack of competitive teams in their division. BA is not surprising to me either considering they have a pretty stacked roster from top to bottom. With that being said, the winner of this is MC, as he choses himself as most disappointing and he is dead on. Playing in the arguably the WORST division in the league, he is 9 games below .500 after preseason predictions of top 5. Everyone wants to harp on Boston, which I admit is also underwhelming this season but their division is hands down the toughest in the league. I will say Chitown had the second best list, since they had ALBA/Boston , followed by NYK and then partiZan. Not quite sure Tehran is disappointing, especially since he’s stayed above .500 even with multiple devastating injuries.
MC: 4; Chitown: 3; NYK: 2; partiZan: 1
Question #5: Who is the most underrated player in ABCA? Who is the most overrated player in ABCA?
NYK: Another one that is a bit difficult to answer but i'll give it a try. The most underrated player in the league? Can't give one specifically but i'd probably say one of the "curse players" because I think some guys really buy into it. Whether that be Joe Fulks, Bill Spivey, or to a lesser extent Jack Twyman. The game has all 3 of these guys rated by the color system like stars, when they aren't, so I understand that and Fulks and Spivey are getting paid a bit too much. But it seems at times people really buy into the curse thing by calling these guys scrubs or point to the fact that they are on a roster as the reason a team is under performing, despite them never really being a focal point. Spivey is having an great year now that he actually receives minutes, putting up 10.4 PPG - 11.8 RPG - 2.0 BPG, CSKA is a .500 team but did anyone expect them to be better? Fulks has been on Detroit, ALBA, and is now on the 76ers helping them play some solid basketball. Throughout the year he's put up 18.8 PPG - 4.8 RPG - 2.1 SPG on nice efficiency. He is not suited to lead a team but anyone who wouldn't want this guy on their team just because his name or who is he, is crazy and it seems there are a decent amount of those. Twyman is putting up 14 PPG - 6.3 RPG - 1.3 SPG as a non-option and did similar numbers last year as a non-option on a 52 win team, his efficiency is solid and believe it or not since coming to NY has played solid defense. Again none of these guys are stars but I feel they are a lot better than people make them out to be.
The most overrated player? Uh Idk maybe Groza but it seems that after a second disappointing year from a individual standpoint his value has dropped a bit. I also think Bob Boozer may have taken a step back from the year before that hasn't been noticed by everyone yet. These two are still good players but they aren't nearly as good as they were a year or two ago.
MC: Hal Greer to me is the most underrated player in the league. There are a lot of choices here, but Greer continues to play at a high all star level every year and rarely if ever gets talked about. Greer is a huge reason for the success for ALBA and their ability to make trades around him and still improve shows how important and good he is. As for the most overrated player in the league. Right now its Bob Boozer at least to me. He was a key piece to Detroit when added to Stokes and Oscar but he continues to decline each year, and really is not the player gms thought he could be when drafted by London in round 1 of the creation draft. Clearly his play is down, his ratings are down and his trade value too. That does not boode well for a guy and team that could use him on a title chase.
partiZan: The most underrated player to me is Alexander Nikolic. Nobody ever discusses him as a top guard or player but he has continued to become a better point guard each season. His shooting percentages are down this season but that seems to be the case for most of the point guards in the league. His career PER is 20.0 which is very good for a guard.
The most overrated player is Satch Sanders who is slowly becoming average in everyones eyes finally. He provides you very little outside of shot blocking but is paid like a star (and MC wasn’t the only one willing to pay him what he did). A career 13.6 PER while averaging 3.8 fouls per game is pathetic for a big man.
Chitown: The most underrated player is Billy Cunningham (most underrated), who’s averaging a quiet 25/8/3. This guy is a top 25 player in true shooting % and PER, and a top 10 player in estimated wins added, plus an excellent rebounder at the SF position. His defense, given his athleticism, is passable. No one talks about him because he’s now in Moscow has been a pillar of mediocrity since their strong first season as a defensive juggernaut. (41, 42, and 42 wins over the last 3 years, and exactly at .500 this season) But he’s the reason they haven’t fallen off despite trading Belov. Finally, restating my public remarks after the London / Tehran trade, I think London made a huge mistake for trading a PF with top 5 potential at his position for a wildly overrated PG who is past his prime in Lenny Wilkins (most overrated). He has by far the worst PER among starting PGs at 11.1, and I don’t think two mid-late 1st round picks and a nice defensive specialist makes up for trading a 20/10 pillar for 10 seasons. The fact that people have been praising the move makes Lenny the most overrated player in the league.
Analysis: Wow, by far the toughest category to judge right now. I absolutely agree with MC, Chitown & partiZan on this one. Hal Greer to me is definitely the most underrated player in the league as he gets absolutely zero love from anyone. I’m not sure Billy Cunningham is underrated since he was a centerpiece to obtain Alexander Belov but I think his stats go unnoticed since CSKA isn’t as outspoken as some. Alexander Nikolic is definitely the most underrated PG, he left Washignton and they crumbled and he went to Tel Aviv and they made the playoffs with a pretty weak roster. What it came down to was the choice of overrated and partiZan is my choice for this. Satch Sanders makes the most money for a guy who is only capable of being a backup and he is barely even league average at that. Save for some blocks, he is too overrated and should be put in jail for stealing all that money. Lenny Wilkins is definitely my second choice, he’s declining and I’m not really a fan of guards who have a TS% barely above .500. To me Bob Boozer is overrated but people forget he’s still only 24 and is an elite defender. NYK has some good ideas but I think the curses are probably overrated based on names and Groza would be a lot better if he wasn’t playing with Heinsohn/Felix up front. PartiZan takes this home followed by Chitown, MC & NYK.
partiZan: 4; Chitown: 3; MC: 2; NYK: 1
Bonus Question: Which two cities would you like to see get an expansion team?
NYK: Really don't have a big opinion on this to be honest. I would like to see the NOLA Jazz get a team, because I think that everything about that franchise is cool. I also would like to see a foreign squad get a spot, but i'm not as familar as I should be with them, so I don't really know who should be the choice there, but I do feel it should be one NBA/ABA team like the New Orleans Jazz and a foreign team.
MC: In the americas there are plenty of choices and I'm fine with the Harlem GLobetroders getting a team if indeed thats where it goes. Its fun, its different and really there is no club thats out there in america that really has more global appeal as well as the brand name. I kinda like St. Louis as another choice mostly cause that was a key ABA team and is still getting paid by the NBA as per there buy out deal. No owner in any sport made such a deal as to get a % of NBA profits for life when the ABA/ NBA merger happened. Well done. As for the team in Eurasia frankly im not as well versed in the world game and its franchises, I do think a team in france or lithuania make sense though in terms of the global view of teams that could be needed.
partiZan: New Orleans – ABCA is about making things right. Jazz belong in NOLA.
BC Zalgiris – Euro Basketball without a team in Lithuania just makes no sense.
Chitown: I’ve heard a lot of arguments around this, and I do agree with trying to balance geographic diversity with historical relevance. I also think size of market is important, so that’s why I’d throw out NBA options like New Orleans and Indiana, which with 30 US NBA teams make sense, but when the world is supposed to be better represented, they don’t really at all. Thus, my top 2 choices are the Golden State Warriors for the Americas and Anadolu Efes S.K. (Turkey) for the Eurasian.
Starting with Golden State, it is the 5th largest metro area in the US with 8.3 million residents (the top 4 areas all have teams), the franchise has 3 titles (T-5th, NBA history) and some notable hall of famers you guys might recognize (Arizin, Barry, Wilt, Fulks, Johnston, Gola, Lucas, Thurmond, Wiilkes, B. King, and the more modern Chris Mullin.) Tons of our ABCA legends were on their team, so why aren’t they in our ABCA legends league?
Turkey has a rich basketball tradition, sending 8 players to the NBA (good for 14th place in the world outside the USA/Puerto Rico), and 11 of the 13 countries above them already have/had teams in ABCA. The others (Croatia, Lithuania) have strong cases but much smaller markets in terms of metro populations (Zagreb 1.1M, Kaunas 0.7M) whereas Istanbul has a metro pop of 13.8M. Turkey has also had great and recent success in international basketball when it hosted the 2010 FIBA World Championship, finishing second to the USA. Ersan ?lyasova, Hedo Türko?lu, Mehmet Okur, and Ömer A??k are all known NBA names. And have cool dots and squiggles around their names. Anadolu Efes is the most successful club in the history of the Turkish Basketball League, having won the league's championship 13 times. Although it has never won the Euroleague, it has competed in the Euroleague each of the past 17 years, and has been a quarterfinalist 6 times and a semifinalist once. I actually feel very strongly they should be the next team. Their logo is pretty cool too.
Analysis: No winner for the bonus question, this was simply to just give people a voice on where they feel expansion might be beneficial without having to write an article. Good job fellas.
Conclusion: The tally has been completed and the final scores reveal the Mexico City Titans as the winner of this seasons roundtable, following by the Chicago Bulls, KK PartiZan & New York Knicks, I appreciate everyone’s contributions to this article as these questions required research in order to complete. Thank you for reading this in its entirety and go Kings!
MC: 16; Chitown: 14; pArtiZan: 12; NYK: 8
